Frances, I had nearly completed a very long post responding to your qualified defense of James as perhaps only naive, which also addressed some of the other concerns expressed in your initial post, and then I pushed some button, I do not know what, and messed up the whole windows setup and it took Jan (who knows more about Windows than I do, but still couldn't figure out what I did wrong or she did right) 30 minutes of messing around to get back (almost) to our original screen. Anyhow I can't redo that post, but I will address the question you raise in your second post. I talk almost weekly (and have been talking for over 30 years) with people that express some or all of Withrow's obscene views -- and over the years I really think I have learned how to "tell the difference," at least in face-to-face discussions. James is, as Mark says, a troll. Worthless.
However, I see a profound difference between the two posters Mark collectively referred to as "trolls" to be tolerated on the sand-in-the-oyster principle. I value Max's presence on the list, though I'm often pretty rude to him (as in turn he is to me) -- but we'll both survive it. I see the likes of James as more like a quart of gasoline in the aquarium than a sand-in-the-oyster. And if list members can't ignore him, if they keep trying to argue with him or educate him, then his continued presence will ultimately damage the list. Lou, you, I, and others have already given him far more of our time and energy than he is worth.
There are some circumstances when it is worth treating such trolls with civility and respect. Back in 1968-69 the SDS at ISU maintained a booth in the lobby of the student union. When the likes of James came along, if there were other students in earshot we would discuss/argue the war and other issues with him (usually him) at some length, not in any hope of having the least effect on the troll but speaking solely to educate the bystanders. It often made real gains for us. But if there was no one to listen in, our response would simply be, Fuck off, stop wasting our time. I suspect that almost everyone on this list knows enough and has developed enough views, so they're not going to be very interested with debates at the level of the James's views would provide. He is a racist, period [But see P.S., below]. This is the last I have to say about him, and I've never had anything to say to him.
Carrol
P.S. I have, once or twice, seen a racist get moved signfiicantly by having a black man figuratively or literally pop him in the nose. And Bruce Franklin once told me a story of moving the workers in a war plant to willingness to talk things over when Franklin and comrades showed up with barrel staves to defend some "peaceniks" who had been peacefully picketing the plant and getting beat up. And there are some fine stories of the effect of such treatment on male supremacists in both *Fanshen* and *China Shakes the World*. But that sort of education can't occur on a maillist.]