Interjections follow
>>> "K" <d-m-c at worldnet.att.net> 11/19 4:54 PM >>>
SnitgrrRl writes: As for the discussion w/ Charles and others:
In fact, if I have understood him correctly, Charles was suggesting that people can, in fact, identify with the other in important ways, essentially through personal and social struggle. Indeed, he said that Blacks have always had to understand both their own culture and that of whites, they've had to operate in both worlds, speak both langugages, and thus, according to Charles, it would follow that whites could become Black In order to become Black, whites need to immerse themselves in and understand Black History and Culture in order to affirm Blackness. As DuBois's argued in "The Souls of Black Folks" Blacks are both Black and White. They must learn to love their Blackness, rather than rejecting it in favor of whiteness and assimilation But, DuBois argued, they must also recognize that they live in the US and so must embrace white history and culture, overcoming and helping to shed through struggle the shame of white racial domination. DuBois, trained in Germany, wanted to affirm white history and culture, its positive aspects, rather than throwing the baby out with the dirty diaper. Whites, I think Charles was arguing, might take a cue from DuBois and embrace the Blackness within them. And here I think he was picking up on Niles point that much of White culture is indebted to Black culture. You'll have to correct my misreadings here Charles _________
Charles: The above is an accurate understanding of what I am saying, with some good additions to what I said. I am not exactly sure how far Dubois took the "affirmative" implication of what he said. That is mostly my extension of his reasoning. As occured here, people are usually a little thrown off when I say it.
________
I intervened for two reasons, one of which I never addressed. First, I was concerned that the commodification of Black culture has rendered this project highly problematic. ______
Charles: This is correct also, and not only commodification makes this problematic. As Max said, how would white people do it without looking silly ? How are Black people going to respond ?
I have not instituted it as a "project" much because it is so problematic and controversial. But I think to defeat racism ultimately there will be something going on this radical , if not exactly like this. ___________
I look out my window and see my white neighbor, a young man of 15, who embraces the language, dress, music, attitude, comportant of what we might call hip hop culture. He loves Blackness in all sorts of ways. Spends lots of money on it even. But, he says the most incredibly racist things. They are sometimes called Wiggers. _________
Charles: Yes, it is messy, but it is a start. Generation gap issue are complicating the issue here. I'm 48 and not of the hip hop generation. I have criticisms of it,but I also respect it and try to help it mature. The problem here is in part the lack of historical and political depth in the conception of Blackness. But that is a universal problem in the era of Reaganite counterrevolution or counterrevolt against the advances of the sixties and seventies. It is not just Black culture that has been commodicized more and dehistoricized. We have to fight commoditization AND forge forward on the tasks laid down to us by the New Left (such as developing progressive youth culture) - BOTH !
__________
Also, I think of the street market I visited while conferencing this summer and recall my colleagues rushing to buy trinkets, rugs, scarves, jewlery and pottery that had the 'right' ethnic look that might signify their progressive politics. It sickened me, as I wondered who sweated and labored to make these things for a pittance in some factory somewhere. They weren't authetic, they were mass produced crap. These weren't idiots,my colleagues. They were good and decent people who genuinely care about the plight of historically oppressed people. I think about the fad of slumming: visiting the oh so hip areas of inner cities where people can be weekend warriors and return to their gentrified neighborhoods and suburban enclaves when the going gets a little too rough for them. __________
Charles: I agree with this. These are old but continuing problems. You are right to guard against them.
My proposal is radical, but my background helps me to formulate it with full consciousness of the obstacles you correctly raise.
I hope that clarifies.
SnitgrrRl _____
Charles: I wouldn't say you have a hard on for Marx, but you're a pretty sober materialist :>)
Charles Brown
Detroit