I'd call this 'feeling good' about Blackness stuff bordering on exoticization of the Other.
I'd call it fertile soil for further commodification. (as if the culture industries need any help in this regard)
I'd also call it completely blind to any sort of critical examination of where this 'blackness' comes from which is rancourous, acrimonious debate to be sure.
I'd also call it dangerous. What of Mexicano Chicano Puerto Rican Fillipino Chinese Aleutian Korean Panamanian Samoan Brazilian Etc. Dot dot dot. You get the picture.
SnitgrrRl
>>> "d-m-c at worldnett.att.net" <d-m-c at worldnet.att.net> 11/23 10:53 AM >>>
> I would say the one comment in your
>initial post that seems weak on Blackness
>is your questioning the historical depth
>of the Blackness I was asserting.
I don't recall questioning the historical depth. I do recall being concerned that what you wrote initially didn't seem to address the forces of commodification. Surely you didn't pack everything about your thinking into that one post on how whites might become Black. And since I don't know you or your politics it seems reasonable that I should question you about it. __________
Charles: This is part of what I am saying. Since you knew I did not pack everything into that post, why did you jump to a negative conclusion about what I didn't write ? Surely, you are aware that not everybody who writes about or practices BP or BL falls into the errors about which you expressed concern. Why didn't you assume that I DID have a critical and historical perspective version of BP and BL. ? _________
And it seems reasonable that I should get a reply cognizant of the fact that phrases like Black liberation and Black Power can easily be read as versions of identity politics. And of course it seems reasonable that I should get a reply that doesn't perjoratively label me as a failed Marxist from the get-go. ______ Charles: I didn't mention anything about your Marxism from the get-go. I merely discussed the "from where the blackness came " in Maxist and Fredrick Douglass terms. I have my first reply to you if you want to see it. It doesn't claim you are not a Marxist.
Also, I don't understand why you leap to the conclusion that what I was saying was "completely blind to any sort of critical examination of where this blackness comes from." What made you think that ? __________
BL and BP, as you well know, have been analyzed as variants of identity politics, not necessarily because of the theoretical works of their proponents, but in the actual practices taken up by followers. ____________
Charles: No, I didn't know this. Spell it out for me some.
What paradigm critiques "identity politics"? What do you mean by "identity politics" ?
I can see BL and BP critiqued as petit bourgeois or narrow nationalism, but this contradictons has always been there in national liberation struggles.
__________
>Why
>would you question the historical depth of
>a discussion of Dubois, etc. ?
Because Dubois isn't always taken up in the same way you do. People have used Dubois's work for a variety of purposes, not necessarily marxist and definitely not in the interest of a worldwide coalition politics. This is, in part, because of his training in German Hegelian thought, idealism.
>It evinced
>a lack of historical depth in the questioner
>that threw into question your Black consciousness.
Yes, I can see how you might have thought this. I think you can see, now, that this isn't the concern that motivated my questions. In fact, I was looking at it from what I see going on around me: a superficial interest in and attempt to symbolically represent one's politics on the part of whites who all too often think it quite enough to study and appreciate Black history and Culture. I don't think it's enough to become Black, though perhaps its a start, mostly because I think the forces of commodification are so great that Black history and culture will just become packaged and sold in ways not unlike the Benetton Down's babies that Frances mentions. We already have a well-established tradition of co-opting and commodifying Black history and culture in this country. So, I'm wary.
I mean come'on Charles. I rented When We Were Kings the other night because I wanted my son to watch it. In it Spike Lee talks about how young Blacks know nothing about their history and culture, and they often don't know what happened last year let alone in 1850. So, of course they should learn to love Blackness and celebrate Black Power. So, of course whites should do same. But will that kind of political strategy be enough to dismantle systemic systems of class/racial oppression? __________
Charles: Again, I did not claim that I was putting forth the main elements of a revolutionary agenda to " dismantle systemic systems of class/racial oppression". For that, we must expropriate the expropriators, abolish private property. We need socialism. So, I agree with you, but I was not claiming that white people becoming black was a first order of business for fundamentally changing the system. Your comment is correct in my book, it is just that my post did not run afoul of your criticism.
For Mexicanos will it be enough to fight Taco Bell's Dinky campaign and demand that people learn to love and celebrate their Mexican history and culture. No. It might be a start, but it's not enough. I think you addressed this later. _________
Charles: See above, Mexicanos need socialism too. The Mexican workers are necessary in the struggle to overthrow capitalism, especially in North America.
>Also, responding to pro-Blackness, love of
>Blackness as antagonistic to the other
>Peoples of color is not a Black reflex.
No, probably not. So I'm a woman of color who reads pro-Blackness as having had, at times, a history of turning all issues into issues of white vs. Black. So shoot me. _________
Charles: Come on. I apologize if my comment fell into an old strictly Black/white paradigm. Those who formulated pro-Blackness had no intention of dissing other people of color.
____________
In any event, I read Niles' list of Black cultural icons and I was wondering how you'd manage to put together a kind of program for whites and other people of color who want to become Black. What would you recommend if you had your druthers? What criteria of selection might you use?
________________
Charles: I have to reread the post you are talking about.
But, as I have already implied, the struggle for freedom from slavery and racism, and the affirmative Black consciousness generated out of that are a core of the Black consciousness. Also, African physical types have been maligned as ugly in European culture. Reversing this brainwashing in us all is an important project for Black people or white or other colored people becoming Black. However, I am not advocating that other people of color play a role of oppressors of Black people as much as white people, so the question of other people of color becoming Black is a little different. For one thing, many Latinos are Black.
Charles Brown
Detroit