I shouldn't have been coy. I understand the arguments by you, Louis Pro, and even a comrade on another list where a parallel question on "what is revolution ?" has gone on, I understand your arguments against the idea of the Am war of Independence (and the other the U.S. Civil War) as revolutions. However, I think that if the events you describe well in France and Germany, etc. can be termed revolutions ( even when they failed) , then Lenin, Engels and Marx are not wrong in referring to the American War of Independence as revolutionary and part of a rev.
The classes in battle in the American War of Independence were comparable to those you mention in the French struggles which has been termed a rev.
Yes, I look forward to the simulation: Bumps in the Road to Socialism bypassing Capitalism, maybe ?
Charles Brown
>>> "Henry C.K. Liu" <hliu at mindspring.com> 11/24 11:36 AM >>>
Charles:
The definition was not of my making.
History calls the events in Paris in February, 1848 as the February Revolution of 1848. It overthrew the monarchy of Louis Phillipe and established the Second Republic. Guizot's increasingly reactionary policies, coupled by the general economic depression of 1846-47, led to mass dissatification, which culminated in street fighting in Paris on February 22. Two days later, LP abdicated. Louis Blanc, leader of the radicals, was outmanuveoured by Lamartine, leader of the so-called bougeois revolutionists, and the "spetre of Communism" was temporarily extinguished in France. The February Revolution, though failed in France, inspired the Revolutions of 1848 in many Eouropean nations that also failed subsequently. Many historians consider the conflict between two set of demands, one soical and economic, the other liberal and national, as the structural cause for the failure. Personally, I think the lesson points to the limits of "democratic" politics as a revolutionary vehicle. Henceforth, class struggle shifted from between the aristocracy and the bourgeiosie to one between workers and the capitalists in the Western economies.
Our views are not in conflict on this, I think.
Henry C.K. Liu
"Without rev theory there is no rev movement." Exactly, please participate in the virtual simulated CCP debate.
HCKL
Charles Brown wrote:
> >>> "Henry C.K. Liu" <
>
> 1859 would place France 11 years after the February Revolution of 1848
>
> ____________
>
> Charles: What sort of revolution was this ? Wasn't
> it the attempted rev of 1848 ? The rev of
> the leftovers from 1793 ? The rev that
> was temporarily revived in the Commune ?
> What's your definition of a rev ?
>
> Charles Brown
>
> Without rev theory there is no rev movement.