-----Original Message----- From: Chris Burford <cburford at gn.apc.org> To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com> Date: Saturday, April 03, 1999 1:08 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: MADRE's Talking Points on Yugoslav Crisis
>This is the sort of criticism of NATO that is IMO more principled and
>credible, and has coherence as an overall strategy.
>
>They have been involved, from what they say, in a quite different strand of
>left-wing work in the Former Yugoslavia than the current of chauvinist
>Serbian social facism that people think it is their anti-imperialist duty
>to regurgitate uncritically.
Ah yes, people who disagree are at least unthinking stooges or at worst, social facsists. And then later in this post, you complain about being called a proponent of the bombing, even though you are a proponent of the bombing. To summarize:
Chris Burford may make ridiculous and disgusting accusations.
Others may not summarize people's views accurately.
Since I am not allowed to call you a pro-bomber or an LBO bomber, a reasonable summary of your view, I can only assume that you will grant me the same privilege you claim for yourself, to smear others with claims to mindless fascism. Therefore:
Chris, is a list for people who are fans of the LBO and who are generally leftist. Since you are obviously an unrepentant Nazi looking to finish the job the Croats started in World War II, you should unsub from this list and go on with your day job of kicking down doors and strangling Jewish infants.
Turnabout is fair play.
>That current has been about working quietly in multi-ethnic pluralist human
>rights work.
This and several other currents have been brought up by many other posted, including myselg. The pro bombing camp has ignored it. Since you are not a member of the pro bombing camp, but a mindless goosestepping Hitler stooge, perhaps you have simply forgotten rather than ignored these posts.
>It was in an attempt to link up with that type of current that I copied the
>assessment of the devastation of Kosovo by the Helsinki Human Rights Group,
>and why I objected to Yoshie forwarding it to the list with some rubbishing
>from Louis Proyect.
Yes, only Fuhrer approved posts from now on, isn't that right Chris? Gee, slandering someone based on an unreasonable extension of a single policy view can be fun.
>I do not deny that this current will have capitalist
>backers. I do assert it also has real life of its own. It needs to be
>fostered to create a pluralist society.
>I am very glad NATO has abandoned its appeasement role, (which was also
>imperialist in character - even more so than its war role) but one of the
>criticisms to be made of NATO is its condescending saviour approach.
Yes, how can we expect the volk to lead a new destiny if they are not forged in the hot iron of war. Peace, bah!
> It should have had a bottom up approach, and it should have insisted in
>bargaining on fostering not international monitors but the structures of
>civil society, of the sort that MADRE has worked with.
>
>It is positive and essential that the MADRE statement asserts early on the
>magnitude of the oppression of the rights of the Kosovo people. I suggest
>every protest against NATO must recognise this. Not only morally and
>objectively but pragmatically. If the left protests against NATO without
>supporting the rights of the Kosovans it will just isolate itself even
more.
Once divided, better conquered. Excellent strategy, much better than just invading Poland like your buddies did.
>I too think it is a pity Yoshie left, but it was her decision about how she
>was going to use her time. Others will have to decide whether to forward
>Serb social fascist material in order to be able to condemn NATO. If they
>do, I and others will criticise it.
And what is the criticism of a mindless goose stepping Nazi stooge worth anyway?
>But it is a pity that Yoshie did not stay to answer the charge. It would
have been in the >interests of the anti-war movement to do so.
Yes, the anti-war movement must answer to the iron fist of the Last Reich, as must we all one day! Burford and his Aryan allies will not be denied!
>This weekend anti-war activists need to decide if they want their
>demonstrations to appear on the news reports with large pictures of a war
>criminal on prominent display throughout their gathering.
They say that fascism is a kind of collective psychosis. They may be right.
>If Rakesh does not want to be thought a buffoon himself, he might check
>what I actually wrote before he himself writes: "Calling Yoshie a social
>fascist only highlights that you are a buffoon."
I just checked. You're a buffoon. I take Rakesh seriously. I don't take seriously people who seriously fling around terms like "social fascist."
> Likewise I am less impressed with him than I usually am, if he talks about
"LBO >bombers". Similarly I object to Gar Lipow calling me a
"bombing/invasion >enthusiastic".
Okay, we'll stick with calling you a jackbooted, bloodthirsty Nazi whose fingers twicth at the thought of strangling slav after dirty slav. Got a complaint about being called that, then good, retract your comments on social facsism, which has as much merit as my smear of you.
>What is happening is terribly unfair to individuals including poor me but
>quite a healthy feature of a discussion list, that we are being challenged
>and are challenging others, to try to get to grips with a very serious and
>complex situation without being one sided.
Being one sided like tarring people with the label "social fascist" or merely denouncing Rakesh instead of taking issue with the substance of his claims. "Check what I wroter" is not a rebuttal, but then SS officers like yourself aren't used to having extended conversations with brown people, are you?
> I think Yoshie and others have been one-sided reproducers of Serb social
fascist >material.
And they must be purged from the earth for it, Mein Herr.
> I am accused of wanting to bomb for the sake of NATO expansionsim, which
of >course I do not.
No your plans are more devious.
>The point where I am critical of the MADRE statement is in failing to
>uphold the Kosovans right to self determination. They emphasise Kosovan
>oppression, but do not defend their right to decide their own lives.
Maybe they know something you don't? Oh that couldn't be, Aryan supermen know everything.
Of course you think the KLA deserve the support. They're killing Serbs for your Nazi superiors.