> My Fave Demon Paul writes:
>
> >My question -- which I really and truly would like to have answered --
> >is why there's such a gap between the perceptions registered on this
> >list, and the following accumulation of objective data regarding
> >students going on to graduate school, based on 4 major tests.
>
> Paul, first we're talking about undergraduates. The scores you recite are
> for those going on to grad/professional school. I think only 5% of the
> population goes on to grad school of any sort. Only 1% get doctoral
> degrees. Can't recall exact #s. I'll look it up.
True, but, on the college intake side the story is much the same -- WAY more students coming in, and, when you break things down, almost all subgroups have rising scores.
1976 1993 Change White: 944 938 -6 Black: 686 741 55 Asian American: 932 950 18 Native American: 808 847 39 Mexican American: 781 802 21 Puerto Rican: 765 776 11
PSATs and NAEP show pretty much the same thing -- they differ primarily in NOT showing a dip from mid-60s to mid-70s, since they are designed not to be subject to bias from the increased numbers of less-elite students taking the SATs during this period.
And, of course, there's the continual improvement in IQ scores (not that I take them at face value, just another indicator is all, but, as an agregate measure across time...)
1932 -- 100.0
1947/48 -- 106.62
1953/54 -- 107.94
1964/65 -- 108.71
1971/72 -- 109.89
1972 -- 113.37
1978 -- 114.31
> Big difference between writing an essay exam, taking notes in
> class, paying attention and absorbing info and the skills
> required for rote memorization and for psyching out standardized
> tests like GRE's. All one really has to do to get decent GRE etc
> scores is have the basic skills and do one of two things: study
> old exams them over and over or enroll in one of those boost
> your GRE score classes. Same logic applies re SATs.
Granted. But all these objections were always valid in past, too. I'm sure there's more bucks being spent on prep courses and the like as well, but that hardly explains ALL this data that points to continuing improvements, especially when juxtaposed against the widespread sense expressed here that things are REALLY going downhill.
I think it's quite plausible that we've got a multi-factor effect here, and that you've just highlighted some of those factors.
> In general, I'm not clear that scores on GREs reflect a whole
> lot in terms of the sorts of problems we're encountering. Don't
> know if you read my post re "systematically produced normative
> incompetence" Students often *can* do it if they're motivated.
> When they're not, they dig in and resist in whatever way they can.
Yeah, I think you're right that this is a big factor, too.
> Or, they're just plain exhausted from trying to juggle it all.
> Sometimes I have no sympathy for those kids even, cause I
> did it all but then I don't want to start sounding like.....well
> you know.
Yeah, but then, you're you, right? <g>
-- Paul Rosenberg Reason and Democracy rad at gte.net
"Let's put the information BACK into the information age!"