So he is raising the rather importnat issue of whether minors should be prosecuted as adults for horrific crimes. It is a pressing issue. Your response seems to be that minors should in fact be treated as adults. By this logic, it is also OK to put them up for the death penalty or life imprisonment or whatever for murder and such.
I'm not sure I have a position on the prosecution of 11 year olds for such crimes. There are certain things for which I have no context.
But it is very clear that the two parties are not arguing on the same point. The argument that an 11 year old's forced sex against s.o. else is not rape is an argument targeted at a legal distinction with the end in view of trying to say that minors at some level are not responsible for their destructive action of other people, at least not in the same way as an adult, and that the penal code and judicial system must have altered protocols, and with that an altered vocabulary. It could be "not-rape" or "rape subcategory 3a" or some such other thing. But the gist is that two identical acts, one commited by an 11 year old, the other by a 21 year old, are not treated in the same.
The argument that an 11 year old is capable of being sexually aware and physically capable of committing the crime (against women, girls, or boys, or even men) is irrefutable in the same sense that it is irrefutable that an 11 year old is capable of procuring a firearm and discharging it with intent to kill. The question is whether such an act would be "murder" by virtue of the perpetrator's age (or "not murder" or "murder sub-cateogry 3g").
It seems to me inescapable that if you conclude that willful commitment of a rape by an 11 year old should merit the same kind of prosecution as a 21 year old, that the same reasoning should be applied with regard to other crimes by 11 year olds. Certainly it is the case, where an 11 year old earning money as a "runner" for a dope dealer carries out an execution of a rival, that we have both adult motivation (money, status, pleasing a superior) and premeditation. At that level it seems hard to argue that age by itself conveys exoneration. But of course, the issue raised is, what kind of society allows 11 year olds to live in such a way that they see being drug runners willing to kill as the proper path to adulthood.
My answer to these issues is "I don't know," but it probably behooves the legal system to be consistent, and not to privilege the prosecution of rape over murder, for example, by having lesser penalties for kids than adults in murder cases vs having the same penalties in rape cases.
-gn.
kelley wrote:
> a possessed chuck grimes writes:
>
> >Obviously no girl or woman is safe from the evil that lurks behind
> >every zipper, struggling to be free, no matter how tiny it might
> >appear at first or second or third or fourth glance. We all know full
> >well that in this case little evils get to be big ones all too soon.
>
> honestly, chuck, are you trying to channel the spirit of David Hawkes here
> or what?
> what is the point of ridiculing this situation, exaggerating the concerns
> so as to further contribute to the stereotype? it's quite clear to me
> that an 11 year old might be easily capable of rape. i have an 11 yr. old.
> he matured fairly early and, while regular erections, aren't part of the
> scene yet. [sorry, i raised a kid who shares these things with me far more
> than i'd like sometimes.], it is clear to me that an boy much more savvy
> than my son could rape a girl and, indeed, could fantasize about it.
>
> why must everyone insist that there are malicious vendettas here that can
> be extended to all feminists and all feminist agendas? why, if it seems
> that a young man committed rape, is it wrong to prosecute it as rape?
> [this whole thing about children and sexuality too is rather historically
> specific, a product of western capitalist development so i wouldn't be so
> quick to universalize what children are 'essentially' like based on
> observations]
>
> why are you painting with such broad strokes? what's the motivation other
> than to dismiss and render laughable and powerless a movement that is
> certainly not insignificant in terms of the problems it identifies and must
> work extremely hard to eradicate?
>
> and, since jim wants to 'share' personal information, let me just note that
> sexual harassment is still quite alive and well, thank you very much. i
> have been put in those situations far too often ever since i was 14. a man
> on this very list has found delight in mailing me links to porn sites, as
> if somehow he just knew that i was interested or cared. furthermore, i
> ignored him only to receive a comment some weeks later about s&m. in no
> way did i "ask" for such behavior. my addressing max as "maxhunkhoney" or
> 'wojtek' as 'sweetpea' or even talking about sexuality in public does not
> constitute an open invitation to be sent that sort of crap, does it. why,
> by virtue of posting to this male dominated space, should i have to deal
> with that? i'll add, too, that others have found delight in making snide
> comments about my sig quote. well sorry, buoyz, but that sig quote has a
> theoretical meaning [women as mediators of 'exchange'] and really very
> little to do with getting yourself off.
>
> is any of this workplace sex harassment? no. i'd call it, basically,
> dorkiness on the part of the men who do this, a complete inability to
> understand appropriate behavior, a lack of common sense and a basically
> crass attitude toward women who have a brain and a sense of humor. i guess
> i must be pretty threatening, huh?
>
> so, now you will go off and pout and say 'oh another sex negative feminist.
> great.' well no, actually, that's not it. and it's a godamned shame that
> i even have to bother to explain it to anyone. indeed, i'm not even going
> to bother. figure it out for yourself, chuck, since you're very capable of
> reading hegel, i'd imagine that you could take a peek at some texts that
> have certainly got to be far less challenging.
-- Gregory P. Nowell Associate Professor Department of Political Science, Milne 100 State University of New York 135 Western Ave. Albany, New York 12222
Fax 518-442-5298