>>> "rc-am" <rcollins at netlink.com.au> 03/17/99 01:06AM >>>
chaz wrote:
>The overthrow of capitalism does not occur automatically. It is not
objective economic factors such as a low GDP that make the revolution.
It is people, the working class. Capitalism has been overripe for
overthrow for decades. The lacking factor is class and socialist
consciousness in the working class tens of millions, the subjective
factor. Objective factors such as unemployment, poverty, unhappiness
push the people, but only people can actually make the rev.<
i agree with you that capitalism will not fall over because of objective factors. but then, i can't agree that these objective factors are actually objective: ie., aren't things like unemployment, poverty, boredom also - *at the same time* - subjective factors? ((((((((((((((((((((
CB: "at the same time" , what, they are subjective AND OBJECTIVE. So, yes they are actually objective. You mean that they are subjective and objective. But why not think of them as ACTUALLY both subjective and objective ? Do you think they are not actually subjective ? They are objective in that those unemployed and poor cannot change them. They are objective for those workers who cannot get jobs or money. Although it is the case that the subjective factor is what is lacking for revolution at this point, this does not mean that there are not actual objective characteristics to the revolutionary social setting.
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doesn't the labour process shape the forms of working class subjectivity, which is in turn a result of responses to forms of working class subjectivity/struggle? i say 'in turn', but even then i'm not at all sure that there is a neat chronological sequence at play. and i say 'responses', but i am not at all sure *who* it is that responds.
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CB: Yes , the objective labour process shapes the forms of working class subjectivity , as does working class fight back. But, those are the objective factors. The objective factors are overripe. The working classes have been shaped by the labour process as much as they are going to be as far as taking a horse to the water trough. But now, a subjective factor is going to have to kick in to get them to drink of revolution. How do we persuade them ? We Marxists must come up with a persuasive rap. The objective factors have battered them about as close to that as they can. We cannot count on the spontaneous results of the sparks at the points of production. That is economism. etc., etc. Similar argument as in _What Is To Be Done ?_. In other words, it would be vulgar materialism to see revolutionary mass consciousness deriving only from the labour process. (((((((((((((((((((((((((((
where does subjectivity come from? from itself?
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CB: From Judith Butler :>) From Others, from other people. Well, it's a collective process. From a psychic power party of a new type ; and from science, this is still actually subjective and objective , both.
Charles Brown