-----Original Message----- From: Margaret <mairead at mindspring.com> To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com> Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 8:10 AM Subject: Re: Protest against the Bombing
>"NM" <nillo at tao.agoron.com>) wrote:
>
>> It strikes me Margaret that the problem you have with the
>>Kosovo situation is that you, simply put, don't know anything about it.
>
>Perhaps you're right.
It gets clearer to me all the time.
>>Kosovo is not analogous to a cat and the US is not a bully who feels an
>>ounce of compassion for the cat. It reminds me of the Gulf War when the
>>Republicans compared Kuwait to a woman being raped, Iraq to a motorcycle
>>gang and the US to the police. Clearly, all three were motorcycle ganes
>>with the US Angels goading the Iraqi bikers into attacking another set of
>>bikers so the US could ride in and away with everything. Why Kosovo is
>>suddenly a defenseless kitten is beyond me. You're dreaming.
>
>I guess i must have learned about examples in a
>different way to some other people here.
>
>You're right, Kosovo is not a cat. [*boggle*] Do you
>really imagine that i thought it was?
Actually I said, at the top of the paragraph, "Kosovo is not analogous to a cat," not that it was literally not a cat. Do you get hay fever for all these strawmen you build? Is there any reason why I should take the opinion of a person who cannot even keep an idea in her head for the length of one paragraph seriously?
>Let's try it a different, more abstract way: a good
>outcome does not become a bad outcome because it is
>achieved by a bad actor, or for a bad reason. It
>remains a good outcome.
What good outcome? You seem to think that the people who are against the invasion are somehow just being reflexive rather than thinking things through. In fact, we are taking a critical view, not just of the invasion, but also of justifications for the invasion, and our view is a port-critical one, not a naive anti-imperialism. There is no way for a good outcome to emerge from the dynamic currently in place with the NATO invasion.
A few people have asked you why you think NATO will protect the Kosovars. I'm still waiting. Usually it takes several weeks or even months for the negative impact of imperialism to become clear, however in this case we have had ample evidence within two days. Serb repression of the Kosovar Albanians has increased. The anti-war movement in Belgrade has evaporated. Congratulations.
>If we had saved the lives of the Muslim men massacred
>by the Serbs at Srebrenica, it would have been a good
>outcome, regardless of why we did it. That we failed
>to do it is a bad outcome, regardless of our reasons.
>People, motives, and outcomes are all distinct, and can
>be good or bad independently of one another.
This is a rather sad and pathetic analysis. You'd think that someone on this list would be capable of better. Why you continue to look at these things in isolation is beyond me, clearly there is a large scale dynamic at work here and it has been since the late 1980s. UN/US troops are still in Bosnia, to make sure that the ethnic cleansing that was done remains intact, and now the US is moving even further East to interfere with the rest of the Balkans. Imperialism is a dynamic of capitalism, not just a matter of people rushing around and sometimes doing good things and sometimes doing bad things. To be anti-capitalist is to be anti-imperialist. If Hitler pushed me out of the way of a car, is that a good thing or a bad thing, if you decide not to shoot him because he pushed me out of the way? See, I can use a ridiculous "Hitler test" too. And if you didn't shoot Hitler because he kept me from being run over, I also have no problem holding you responsible for the deaths of 40 million people in WWII.
>>>Additionally, your continued reframing of people's points into the
positions
>>held by the ruling class before World War II (i.e., worrying about Russian
>>fallout is suddenly "peace in our time" appeasement, people against US
>
>That must be a meaning of 'continued' with which i'm
>not familiar. :-)
It is something you have done repeatedly:
>>>Are you saying that we ought to try to appease the Russians? 'Peace in
>>>our time', sort of thing?
>>>>Europe and the US stood by while genocidal atrocities
>>>>were perpetrated in Bosnia. That was disgusting and
>>>>shameful and, as one rabbi put it with great sadness,
>>>>it showed that at the end of the day the world rulers
>>>>simply Don't Care; that pious claims of 'never again'
>>>>are so much hot air when set against private economic
>>>>interests. Why are we supporting that?
>>>>>Or are you saying that, absent a faction that
>>>>>can be certified as ethically pure, the right thing to
>>>>>do is let the killers get on with it and devil take the
>>>>>hindmost?
The use of the word 'continued' I am using is one of the standard uses. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at someone who thinks NATO bombing runs that has already led to greatly increased death rates for Kosovar Albanians is a good thing, or that someone who can't keep the word 'analogous' in her head for the length of a paragraph would not know what the word 'continued' means, even though it is found in most 2nd grade basal readers.
>>imperialism are suddenly "uncritical supporters" of Milosevic) is frankly
>>put, disingenuous, intellectually dishonest and disgusting and I for one,
>>demand that it to stop immediately, unless you would like some turnabout.
>
>You mean you'll bomb me? :-)
No, I mean that I'll simply declare you responsible for every death in the Balkans. Say, how many babies did you burn today, to do a "good thing"? Twenty, a hundred? I just wish I could ram your face in the pile of corpses that are a direct result of NATO intervention. Maybe you'd learn something then.
>=margaret, who feels quite as tho she's gone Through
>The Looking Glass.
Try learning English and stop intimating that the people who are rightly against imperialism are somehow supporters of genocide, it may help you figure out what other people are talking about on this thread.
Btw, I've made several posts on the subject and I can't help but notice that you never bother responding to the many facts of the case that have been put up by me and other readers. You snip whatever would demolish your position and then deliberately misinterpret what remains. Are you sure you wouldn't be happier on alt.NATO.bomb.bomb.bomb?