>>> "Michael Hoover" <hoov at freenet.tlh.fl.us> 11/03/99 03:33PM >>>
> > btw: While it is an exaggeration to say that KM left us no conception
> > of socialism, his and Engels' remarks were relatively few (with respect
> > to corpus of their work), pretty generalized, and often embedded in
> > their critique of capitalism. Seems clear that M thought that socialism
> > would substitute conscious, overall planning for market exchange as
> > dominant social process for economic coordination. But his fairly
> > consistent references to 'associated producers' also makes it clear
> > that he perceived planning as associative, cooperative, and democratic,
> > not bureaucratic or elitist.
>
> since Karl and Fred, the working class has had a lot of experience that
> must be used in the trial and error (scientific) method to project more
> positively the elements of socialism. And certainly actually existing
> socialism has confirmed the proposition in your last sentence above.
> All power to ALL the People,
> CB
Just what was 'actually existing' ('no longer' existing) socialism anyway? a) socialist, or moving along 'socialist road' b) capitalist, or moving along 'capitalist road' c) transition between capitalism & socialism, but not genuinely socialist d) new socio-economic system neither capitalist nor socialist e) state capitalism f) green slime oozing up from underneath earth necessitating that
one clean her/himself off following contact
No power to those who exploit others' labor, Michael Hoover
((((((((((((((
Charles: It was
g) a little too bureaucratic and eltist, and therefore not power to all of the people.
as in your last sentence. That is the error of the trial of formerly ( and actually existing in Cuba) socialism that the working class can use in more definitely projecting what to do the next time
CB