>>> "Max B. Sawicky" <sawicky at bellatlantic.net> 11/22/99 10:49PM >>>
carrol wrote:
> It is your use of "identity politics" in inappropriate contexts, your
> insistence in applying the label where it does not apply, that led
> me to include you among objectively racist marxists.
Yo, Ange,
take heart. at least you're not an objectively racist anti-marxist.
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Charles: Is it that no Marxists have been racists ? Wow, what a compliment to Marxism.
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We saw this approach to nationalism in the Balkans fandango. The list-member formerly known as Louis, henceforth designated as <<O>>, supports nationalism when it facilitates his particular notion of world revolution. In other words, when it suits him. You can have self-determination, as long as your "self" fits my determination. In other words, an anti-nationalist defense of nationalism, not to say a racist anti-racism. Rakesh's infernal thoughts radiate outward and bleach his ass to plain vanilla.
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Charles: Is this topic forbidden , Doug ? Need a call from the umpire: fair or foul ?
Max, the friendly warlord, mocks the notion that there are progressive and backward nationalisms, this as he faints at Marxism. Take a look at the analysis of that Marxist , Lenin. Not to bore with dogma, but the key is to differentiate between oppressor and oppressed nations. For example, in the Balkans, the main oppressor nation(s) were the U.S. and NATO ( the imperialist nations. great power chauvinism ). In that context, the national self-determination of Yugoslavia is defended. It really is not at all as capricious as Max cutsies it. In Viet Nam, the NATIONAL liberation front was organized by Marxist leadership for national self-determination of the colonially oppressed (by the French and American great power chauvinists) Viet Namese nation. Nothing wrong with that nationalism. Get it Max ?
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I also like this bit about leadership. Evidently we need an affirmative action program to designate leaders.
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Charles: Uh, don't we , Max ? I can't follow all the twists and turns of your irony.
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Imagine a real organizing situation involving real workers, and some resulting manifestation of leadership. In walk the anti-racist partisans, who say your leadership is too white and too male.
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Charles: The idea is to get real workers to understanding themselves the need for affirmative action in leadership and otherwise , not to have outsiders come in and impose it. Otherwise , the real workers are through themselves, stuck with capitalism. No end of racism and male supremacy, no end of oppression of all workers. Tough to convince of that with "Marxists" and "leftists" mocking it like here. In fact, Marxist and leftists mocking it is exactly Marxist and leftist racism and male supremacy. Opposition to affirmative action is racism and male supremacy. flat out.
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Some of you white guys should step down in favor of a selection of minorities and women (to be determined by quota?).
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Charles: Of course. You aren't against quotas , are you ? Boy, Reaganism has really infected the vast majority. Here we have on a left list people arguing as if the argument over quotas had been settled in favor of the rightwing side of the argument. Truly this is the left such as it is.
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How long before such partisans are carried out horizontally, not least by minorities and women?
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Charles: And now attributing to "minorities" and women opposition to affirmative action. Is that "self"-determination, or "other" determination ?
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What does this say about the ability or inclination of minorities or women to assert leadership?
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Charles: It says speak for yourself, not minorities or women.
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Oh well. How about that Diogenes? What a card.
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Charles: Yea, an ace of spades.
CB