debating libertarians

[kayak3]

DANIEL.DAVIES at flemings.com wrote:
> 
> Good stuff from Max.  I've been round this trail a couple of times too
> (tho' more in pubs than on stages), so here's my tips:
> 
> >>
> >> Has anyone on the list debated libertarians? What kinds of arguments
> >> should we expect to encounter from the other participants? What kinds of
> >> arguments do libertarians have problems with. Any references to studies
> >> articles or books would be helpful. Especially regarding privatization
> >> or government intervention vs libertarian style free markets. I also
> >
> >My best short, quick answer is there are two basic vulnerabilities:
> >
> 
> My best short, quick answer is "don't bother".  It's a thankless task, with
> no hope of enlightenment and should only really be recommended to the kind
> of people who like to point out weaknesses in the Biblical interpretations
> of Jehovah's Witnesses.  Assuming that this isn't an option (like maybe
> there's money riding on it or something)  . . . .
> 
> >one is that the L argument against government is diseconomical; most
> >anything government abandons can and will be done in some fashion by the
> >private sector, but the outcome will often be unsatisfactory.  This goes
> to
> >the idea of public goods in economics (see any textbook on public
> finance).
> 
> Worthwhile, but remember that your opponent will have learned his economics
> from libboe tracts, and will deny that public goods exist (possibly apart
> from defence).  Don't waste time explaining economic concepts -- he will
> not learn and will simply repeat his script.  A useful remark here is to
> point out "If the individual people always choose the best solution,
> wouldn't that imply that the current system of government is the best
> solution".  This will bring out any latent Black Helicopters tendencies,
> and in my experience, once someone mentions the Bilderberg Group, you're
> fairly safe to start laughing at him.
> 
> >two is an argument usefully recapitulated in Bruce Ackerman's Stakeholder
> >Society.  There is no meaningful freedom in a context of gross inequality.
> >the whole bit about the poor and the rich having the same right to sleep
> >under bridges.  Every runner doesn't begin at the same starting line.
> 
> Remember to bring along a doughnut if you try this tactic, so that you can
> award it to your opponent if he doesn't mention Bill Gates -- I guarantee
> that you will go home licking powdered sugar off your lips.  The other
> script at this point is for the libboe to reel out some tired anecdote
> about a penniless immigrant who worked his way up to be the shoelace king
> (often allegedly a relative or ancestor of your discusant).  The best
> response here is to point out that "the race doesn't always go to the
> swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet", and that
> it's just as unfair that some people have a better *chance* of success.
> 
> The best way to draw the rug from underneath libertarians, however, is not
> to let them get away with claiming that the basis of liberty is property
> rights.  If you give them that, most of their sub-Nozickian conclusions go
> through pretty easily.  Tell them that property rights over a piece of land
> restrict other peoples' freedom to walk on it, and ask them how they deduce
> that property is more important than freedom.  It's a slippery customer
> indeed who can back-flip his way out of that one.
> 
> Oh yeah, and every time they use the form of words "initiation of force",
> remind the audience that under their definition, a black man sitting at a
> lunch counter can be considered to be "Initiating force".
> 
> How did your friend allow himself to be dragged into this mess?
> 

Colorado is becoming increasingly conservative. We are being overrun by
conservatives from California who have done a good job of fucking up
that state so there moving here to do it to ours. It's hard to find
forums for socialists to argue their case in this kind of political
climate. In other words, we're starved for attention.

Brad Hatch