> doug asked your accusers "what's with the either/or stuff". well, it looks
> to me as if you, chuck0, engage in it just as much. what b.s. doug! you
> blast chris for blasting back at chuck? huh? chuck spouted off some
> incredible drivel. itis thoroughly unwarranted and shouldn't be
> encouraged. having spent plenty of time reading infoshops, i know that, in
> principal, this isn't a sentiment that is publicly acknowledge in any
> formal way. and yet here on this list you've spewed anti worker crap so
> often it makes me ill.
Umm, I think you need to read up on anarchism, anarcho-syndicalism, and the anti-work movement.
> i likened you to carrol because for all the pretenses the two of you make
> to detesting each other AND to severely objecting to each other's politics,
> you're both alike. if they're not on your side, doing what you think is
> best, then fuck 'em all, sez carrol/chuck0/leatherbuoyz.
I don't understand the comparison, because I'm not very familiar with what Carrol has said in the past. I never dismissed the Verizon workers, you are reading that into my email. I simply said that winning a contract is a small victory.
> what a bunch of horse hockey these sentiments are: who wants to be a
> customer service rep in a c.service center the rest of their lives?
Have you ever worked customer service? You ever worked user tech support? I have and I hated it. If that job had been unionized it would have been a small improvement, but I ahrdly think the purpose of my life on this planet was to spend 40 years providing customer service. I was lucky, because I have an M.A. and was able to escape using my privilege. I found a better-paying, more tolerable, yet boring job.
One of the reasons why the labor movement doesn't capture the popular imagination is because it is so preoccupied with organizing workers into bureaucratic institutions (business unions) instead of challenging the planetary work machine.
> well, guess what? people do that work and, right now, somebody is going to
> do that work... as to the future? i seriously doubt there's any groovy
> utopian future where we can get machines to do it all or that products will
> not needs servicing. so, while you are setting about to destroy the
> capitalist order, maybe you might try looking at the capitalist ideologies
> that you harbor.
I can see why you aren't going to be giving an inspirational pep talks at the next Verizon union meeting. I can just hear your talk now:
"Dear Verizon workers. Enjoy your chains. You will be given consumer trinkets in exchange for spending your lives in some cubicle answering customer service calls. This is rewarding work and there is no alternative. This is the reason why you were born into the world."
Even if the revolution doesn't happen soon, these type of jobs are pretty indefensible.
> you and carrol also share despite the official rhetoric of being "for" the
> working class a basic antipathy toward workers. what, are they sheeple
> chuck0?
Sheeple? You are simply wrong about me having antipathy towards workers. Where did I express any antipathy to the Verizon strikers? I simply made a big "yawn" about the lowered expectations that deem this strike as some kind of "big victory" for labor.
> it's important to criticize social movements, of course. marx argued often
> that it was important to criticize the "struggles and wishes" of the age
> and radicalize them.
>
> (and what the hell do you think people are doing with regard to the
> anarchist struggles lately? they are critiquing your/their
> politics. perfectly warranted.)
I know. It's been quite interesting.
> sure, don't we wish verizon workers would ask for a whole lot more. but,
> get real man. shtting all over them is unwarranted. you try laying your
> job on the line and see what it takes out of you. it ain't easy,
> especially if you have a family to feed and a mortgage to pay. this is an
> important victory given the tenor of the labor movement in the past two
> decades, not to mention its incredible decline over the past half c. if
> all you can do is sneer at them, then it seems to me that you are
> committing the very same damn sins that the leninist marxists etc you so
> revile committed.
Actually, I'm sneering at academic Marxists who think they have this great analysis of what's happening. I'm pretty aware of the class issues in the city I live in. I commute with Yuppies and live in a working class Latino neighborhood.
> i used to say the crap you say, back when i was a cook. people would ask,
> "so why are you going to college?"
>
> "so i don't have to work in this hole for the rest of my life"
>
> one day i realized that the people i said that to would work in that hole
> the rest of their lives.
>
> the repetitive anti-worker sentiments will, in the end, be an unfortunate
> impediment to the anarchist project.
These aren't *anti-worker* sentiments. They are *anti-work* sentiments.
Believe me, for all the money I've spent on my education (and still am paying via student loan payments) I often wonder if I'd have been happier doing some blue collar job.
I have some recommended reading for you, so you won't continue making these silly claims about me being anti-worker:
The Abolition of Work http://www.spunk.org/texts/writers/black/sp000156.txt
Why do anarchists desire to abolish work? http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secI4.html#seci42
Aphorisms Against Work http://www.internetlovefest.com/work/aphorisms.html
WORKERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE AND STOP WORKING! http://www.internetlovefest.com/work/haynes_one.html
Chuck0 IWW - DC