> Roger Odisio wrote:
>
> >What do you mean by basic needs being "plastic", Doug? I think you said
> >that once before, and I don't have a clue what you mean.
>
> What are basic human needs? Aside from the bare minimums of oxygen,
> water, and nutrients? Love? Tasty food? Art? They seem to vary
> enormously across time & space, and by temperament too.
>
> >And by basic means, do you mean the same thing as Marx--i.e., social
> >subsistence?
>
> What's that mean, exactly? It varies, and not just with the state of
> the class struggle.
Ask some questions, get more questions-as-answers.
To combine both of your responses: For Marx social subsistence is the bundle of goods and services necessary to "produce, *develop*, maintain, and perpetuate" labor. It includes the biological necessities of human life--food, clothing, housing, medical care--which can vary as to climate and other physical conditions, and a social dimension--a "historical and moral element"--depending on the development of culture and custom, which varies over time and across cultures. To quote Agnes Heller (much mentioned here of late): " 'Necessary needs' develop, historically, they are not dictated by mere survival; the cultural element in such needs, the moral element and custom, are decisive, and their satisfaction is an organic part of the 'normal' life of people belonging to a particualr class in a given society."
Social subsistence is that of the family, for if labor is to be reproduced, offspring must nurtured. I asterisked "develop" in Marx's list to highlight the fact that we are talking about a lot more than physical survival. For example, Marx explicitly mentions the cost of education as part of a person's development and thus their social subsistence. Another such element is the care of children in the home.
Yes, these needs change (they are historical) across cultures, phyical conditions, and over time. But they are knowable. Marx simply asserted they were publicly known, and back then that was probably true. But today that's less clear. At what point do computers become necessary for a social existence? Still, as I have mentioned to you before, more than 50 years ago the BLS, of all people, produced a defintion and measurement of social susbsistence that virtually mirrors Marx (though not including some element of human development like education and child care).
However, social subsistence does not vary directly with the "state of the class struggle", if I understand what you mean by that term. Wages and working conditions do. Subsistence is social, a product of conditions mostly outside the production process and the class struggle there, though it is obviously affected by the development of productive forces (productivity of labor).
But I still have no idea what you meant by "plastic". Artificial? Superficial? Synthetic? Easily influenced, lacking in substance? If any of these, I disagree of course.
RO