>>> JKSCHW at aol.com 07/06/00 05:58PM >>>
Oh, I agree with you that the US had no business waging war in Korea, and should, moreover, withdraw its current forces from that country. But I do not think that the merits of anti-imperialism and nonintervention are relevant to whether N.K. (or indeed, S.K.), has a legitimate form of government.
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CB: US imperialism and aggression against Korea are determinitively relevant as to the militarization and centralization of N. Korea's government in defense against that U.S. imperialism and aggresson.
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I note, moreover, that if being an American disqualifies someone from commenting on whether various forms of government are legitimate, taht you are out too, Charles.
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CB: The differene between me and you is that Brad D. and you are speaking for the U.S. government policy. So let me make the link tighter. I had said:
> In other words, the North Korean government meets the Brad D. formulation better than Brad's D's U.S. government does in Korea. So , get the fuck out of Korea, America, and quit trying to tell the Koreans what a legitimate government is, Americans Brad D. and Justin.>.
Strike that and make it "American government shills".
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You are in no position to praise the dictatorship of the proletariat in N.K., being an American and all. However, you don't really believe that.
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CB: I do believe that the NK government is better than you think it is. It is legitimate for me to judge the NK government sufficiently praiseworthy that I speak against the U.S. aggression and suppression of that government and society.
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You just disagree with us about what is a legitimate form of government. You think that what I would call a Stalinist dictatorship is just fine, while you dispise the mere formalities of bourgeois democracy. I see things just the other way around, and both of us think we can make these judgments about other countries.
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CB: No, what I think is that the U.S. government is the main cause of the militarization of N. Korean society, because the U.S. has placed N. Korea under war and threat of war ( including nuclear threat) for its entire existence, and that the N.Korean government would be very much less Stalinist , if there were no military threat from U.S. imperialism. In fact, the Soviet Union and all socialist countries would have been radically less militarized and centralized, Stalinized, had it not been for imperialism, especially the U.S., visiting the biggest wars and military threats in human history on them. So, to the extent that N. Korea and other socialist countries have or had Stalinist dictatorship, it is the fault of the U.S. (and the other imperialist countries before and during WWII) , because the socialist countries had no other choice , in order to survive. And your posturing as superior critic of those countries is profoundly ignorant and arrogant given the world historic!
holocausts that imperialism has visited upon the SU, Korea , Viet Nam, Angola, Mozambique, et al, and to which they had to respond with militarization and centralization, which you call Stalinism.
And it is not at all fine with me that those countries had to suffer so unbelievably ( and we post Civil War Americans cannot really understand it) and place themselves under such harsh discipline to defend against the threat of your government , the U.S.
I despise shaming bourgeois democracy and phony rationalization of U.S. imperialist aggression by references to bourgeois democratic principles.
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As for the "redbaiting" remark, it is indeed clear that this is (directed at people on the left like me) the equivalent of calling an antiZionist Jew "self-hating," taht is, it is a stupid ad hominem. I have been redbaited and then some Charles; I lost my job and my career to it. There is a difference between that and honest if brutal criticism.
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CB: You over analyze here. I didn't think that you were self-hating ( but maybe you are, since you say you are). I think it is redbaiting. Reds, especially reds drifting the right, are not immune from redbaiting. And it is not to your person, but to the form of your comment, which is typically anti-communist language. __________
In your legitimate society, I would be dead or in jail as an enemy of the people; that is not "redbaiting" but a fact, and you would be happy to see me there. That strikes me as a fair criticism of your ideal regime. from my point of view.
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CB: The point is that millions are dead and gone in socialist societies because of the wars and military threats of imperialism and U.S. imperialism in particular, regarding which imperialist ideologues use your exact language from the U.S. founding fathers to cover up their conquering aggression against N. Korea and other countries. And for that matter millions have been murdered and oppressed in the U.S. by those claiming to pursue your words defining a legitimate government.
Your comment that "I would be happy to see you there" is a kind of dillusionary self-victimization and phony self-ad hominem. In this case, it is a continuation of your redbaiting, in that it is a hamhanded effort to make me out as bloodthirsty against you personally. But you are the defenders of the main murderers in this case, the U.S. war machine.
In sum, your half-assed poltical psycholanalysis fails to hide your rationalization of U.S. war and imperialism as the least legitimate governance in Korea.
CB
In a message dated Thu, 6 Jul 2000 3:42:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Charles Brown" <CharlesB at CNCL.ci.detroit.mi.us> writes:
<< Such blatant redbaiting.
A better formulation of democracy , legitimate government, than Brad D.'s is the working class as the ruling class, the dictatorship of the proletariat. Korea may not be quite there but they are as close or closer than the U.S. , so the U.S. has no legitmate basis to wage war on Korea based on U.S. having a legitimate government and Korea not having a legitimate government.
The important point here is that Brad D's use of the famous U.S. formulations is coupled with his justification of U.S. imperialist aggression against Korea, which aggression makes a total mockery of even the old U.S. formulation of legitimate government, because the U.S. warrior presence in Korea is the least legitimate, less legitimate than the North Korean government, presence in Korea. In other words, the North Korean government meets the Brad D. formulation better than Brad's D's U.S. government does in Korea. So , get the fuck out of Korea, America, and quit trying to tell the Koreans what a legitimate government is, Americans Brad D. and Justin.
All Power to the People ( We, the People, that the founding white fathers had a glimpsing thought of).
CB
>>> JKSCHW at aol.com 07/05/00 04:17PM >>>
So, Charles, your alternative? Legitimate government represents the interest of the working class as understood by the unitary Central Committee of the only permitted Party, dissenters will be jailed or exiled or shot as counterrevolutionaries, just like in the democratic paradise, North Korea? If not that, then what? --jks
In a message dated Wed, 5 Jul 2000 3:17:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Charles Brown" <CharlesB at CNCL.ci.detroit.mi.us> writes:
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>>> delong at econ.Berkeley.EDU 07/02/00 08:09PM >>>
How can you tell which governments are legitimate? It's pretty easy.
Legitimate governments:
(a) derive their just powers from the consent of the governed...
(b) secure life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for their citizens...
)))))))))))))))
CB: In other words, the Founding Great White Fathers of the United States defined what a legitimate government is, and the American war machine will make damn sure that the whole world abides by the Great White Fathers' orders.
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