>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Craven, Jim [mailto:jcraven at clark.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 10:52 AM
> To: 'marxism at lists.panix.com'
> Subject: Hitler, Vegetarian, "animal lover", and "right to lifer"
>
>
> The ugly racism of the gran-libs is becoming more apparent every day. When
> faced with the issue of the Makah Whaling being about protecting the
> Treaties left (and the whole nations that will surely disappear without
what
> is left of those Treaties being held to), they change the tune to "no
> sovereignty is unrestricted" or just ignore the argument altogether. When
it
> is pointed out that all life forms feed off of other life forms, the
> argument changes to well beef is grown to be slaughtered whereas whales
are
> in the wild; or we get the demand for vegetarianism as some kind of
> self-evident "moral" imperative. When it is pointed out that Makah are
also
> "cute and cuddly" or that nothing is being said about lab rats being
> protected, they just ignore their own hypocrisy and hubris being pointed
out
> and come back with more summary assertions of the self-evident quality of
> their arguments THEY will decide which life forms are worth protecting,
> which cultures should survive and what their diets should be.. the naked
> racism and hubris is unbelievable. This is why I detest the
granola-liberals
> even more than the ultra-right racists who are quite open about what they
> are about. These pampered, self-absorbed/indulgent narcissistic punks are
> too much.
>
> From another "Vegetarian and animal lover":
>
> From James Pool's "Hitler and His Secret Partners: Contributions, Loot and
> Rewards, 1933 to 1945", Pocket Books, NY 1997
>
> "His pilot, Hans Baur, remembered him watching films from India sent by a
> maharaja. Hitler could calmly look at scenes of the bloody bodies of
people
> who had been attacked by tigers. but during scenes of animals being hunted
> and killed he would sometimes cover his eyes with his hands like a child
and
> ask to be told when it was over. He hated blood sports and sometimes would
> cry at the sight of a wounded animal." (p 284)
>
>
>
> So like this other animal "lover and vegetarian" Hitler, these gran-libs
> casually and imperially dismiss any arguments about: the imperative to
> protect Treaties and treaty rights to protect the survival of whole Indian
> nations; the sovereign right of a culture to survive and to choose their
own
> diets (all of Makah social structures and culture is built around
whaling);
> about the issue of ongoing naked genocide in Indian Country aided/abetted
by
> some of the very "wise use" fascists with whom some of the gran-libs are
> allied on the Makah whaling issue; the issue of industrial pollution
> (advocated by the "Wise use" fascists with which some of the gran-libs are
> allied) and industrial whaling being the real threat to whales not
anything
> the Makah have done; the imperative of Indigenous Cultures to evolve their
> own culture-based programs that offer the best hope of dealing with some
> serious socioeconomic ills; the selective concern and racist
anthopormophism
> of the gran-libs so concerned about a few whales but show no emotion or
> concern about Indians or lab rats or even the "feelings" of plants; the
fact
> that the gran-libs allied with Watson have said nothing about the sport
> fishing and hunting of those with whom they are allied; what will happen
to
> Indigenous cultures and survival if broken Treaty precedents continue to
> mount with impunity; the sovereign right of the Makah to negotiate with
the
> IWC if they choose or not and their sovereign right and right under
> international law to have treaties respected; and so on.
>
> This list is becoming polluted with these pampered,
self-indulgent/absorbed
> narcissistic gran-libs so in love with selected life forms (not Makah or
lab
> rats) and so in love with their own summarily/arrogantly asserted "givens"
> and metaphysical propositions. I know that if they ever came to Blackfoot
> country to "protest" the harvesting of Bison, they would not be politely
> tolerated--Blackfoot cannot be "polite" to those who are "politely"
> dismissing the right of a whole People to survive and have their Treaty
> rights and traditional diets and limited sovereignty respected.
>
> This punk below is simply a racist hiding behind the masks of politeness
and
> animal (some) loving but I'll take the open and naked ones anyday to the
> ones who wear these masks of selective indignation and concern for only
> their own pet life forms. BTW if struggle against genocide, racism, losses
> of treaty rights, wholsesale carnage and destruction of whole nations of
> Indigenous Peoples is not the business of Marxists, I don't know what is.
>
> Why not let the Makah be? Why are whale lives more important than Makah
> lives?
> Racists, pure and simple. As they say in Kerala, "Smiling with the front
> teeth and grinding with the back teeth."
>
>
> Jim Craven
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis R Redmond [mailto:dredmond at oregon.uoregon.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 1:35 AM
> To: marxism at lists.panix.com
> Subject: Re: Makah Whale Hunt
>
>
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Macdonald Stainsby wrote:
>
> > Show me a way to deal with this issue which can respect sovereignty or
> > please get off your horse.
>
> Beats me, I'm not a legal scholar or anything. But no sovereignty is
> unbounded. My point would be this: unlike farm animals, which we've
> largely created, via centuries of breeding, as a food resource, whales are
> natural critters which harm noone and, despite massive brain capacity,
> have avoided building thermonuclear weapons systems capable of
> annihilating the planet (and then testing them on themselves). We should
> just treat them as they treat us, i.e. let them be.
>
> -- Dennis
>
>
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