> --- Matt Cramer <cramer at unix01.voicenet.com> wrote: >
> >
>
> > (being a libertarian
> > != being a laissez
> > faire capitalist!),
>
> Surely to God, yes it freaking does! If you think
> that "initiation of force" (in the bizarre libertarian
> sense) is wrong, then you think it's wrong. You don't
> make exceptions for "trade regulation". You'll have
> to come up with quite a bit of fancy footwork to say
> why you think that the government should "defend our
> borders" unless you have some bizarre libertarian
> theory of the nation state.
Here you are confusing Libertarian (as in the Party) with the political philosphy of libertarianism. There are degress of libertarianism, but all you want to recognize is the extreme version.
Freedom, of both action and thought, has to end at some point. When our actions cause direct harm to others, for example. Where that line lies reflects the many degrees within....
How can I be a libertarian and support anti-trust legislation against M$? Well, first of all, M$ is not a person, so it has no rights. Second, this non-corporeal entity is directly causing harm. Etc..
> And that != thing is a bit pretentious too.
It means "does not equal". Fairly common shorthand in informal logic.
> > In Matt's Libertarian Utopia there is a Fed .gov
> > doing only its authorised
> > duties according to the COTUS,
>
> errrrm .... is it possible for non-Americans to be
> libertarians under your definition?
This is just one example. Certainly there can be others.
> [snip]
>
> > I object
> > to the concentration
> > of power in a centralised .gov, not the notion of
> > .gov as a social
> > contract.
>
> Then you're not a libertarian. You're a federalist of
> some sort.
I find merit in a Constitution. That you think this is not orthogonal to being a libertarian proves my point.
> Libertarianism, surely to Christ, can't be
> a simple belief that something the size of, say
> Austria is the optimal administrative unit. If that
> were all it was, nobody would care about it.
Well, it isn't. You are way off mark in this "analysis".
> >I wouldn't mind paying the taxes I pay if
> > they went into either
> > programs I could choose (like say, the Space
> > program) or into my local
> > community. It isn't the level of taxation per se,
> > but how the money is
> > handled ($200 toilet seats, flood relief for people
> > in far away states
> > that choose to live on flood plains, random bombings
> > of nations that annoy
> > Klinton, corporate welfare, welfare for politicians,
> > War on [some] Drugs,
> > slaughters in places like Waco, etc.).
> >
>
> Hate to be the one to break the news to you -- you're
> not anything quite as exciting as a libertarian.
> You're a Reaganite. You seem to have no problem with
> taxation being forcibly extracted from the population
> in principle,
Did I say this? No. I was refuting the "libertarians are all investment bankers who only want to pay less taxes because they are such greedy evil bastards" position I got so sick of hearing. You are taking this statement above out of context and adding a new context ("forcible extraction"). There is nothing mutually exclusive between being a libertarian and voluntary charitable redistrubution of my income.
>
> > I don't speak for all geeks, since we aren't all
> > libertarians, and I don't
> > speak for all geek-libertarians, but there are a
> > fair amount that share
> > these sentiments.
>
> Matt, have you ever read a book on libertarianism?
> This is only partly a flame. You don't seem to
> understand what you believe, or what libertarianism
> means, or both. Without wanting to be unduly
> offensive, there doesn't seem to be a theory of any
> sort beneath the grab-bag of radio platitudes which
> seem to make up your libertarianism.
No offense taken, since I think your response clearly illustrated my point. Which was, that the left has pigeon-holed a political philosophy into one straw-position, and lacks serious understanding of the subtleties within. This is not meant as an insult, as the non-left has done the same things with leftists and liberals!
Matt
-- Matt Cramer <cramer at voicenet.com> http://www.voicenet.com/~cramer/ I am the resurrection and I am the life, I couldn't bring myself to hate you as I'd like.
-Ian Brown