>So, the point is that the working class may support the war on an
>anonymous questionnaire, but that support is as thin and as unexamined
>as Joe's. Since it didn't take too much to erode it down to
>unanswerable questions, I would say that support depends very heavily
>on a continuous stream of mass media support and its supplements to
>manufacture and maintain the appearance of universal consent. Real,
>live, examined and contented support might be a whole different
>animal.
>
>Chuck Grimes
exactly. but none of that means that, given half the chance, opponents couldn't work with them to build perfectly solid, sound arguments for a war/whatever that you oppose. afterall, people on this list made some perfectly sound arguments for a "bring them to justice" approach that would have, in the end, very likely entailed quite a bit of death and destruction. that is, they felt that the perpetrators of 9-11 should be punished.
further, had things worked out the way many often say they'd like: diplomatic avenues exhausted, plenty of evidence, and a still belligerent taliban, then what? what if the perps had fessed up, publicly? summary executions in the process of bring them to justice would have been supported by many, no doubt.
the only way some of the more opportunistic anti-imperialist arguments work is that they depend on a USG that inevitably does the wrong thing. but those wrong things are not in any way clearly connected to the operations of capitalism. there are vague gestures at the need for a war machine, but max often points out how unpersuasive these are from his more inside washington perspective. it's too conspiracy theory, in a way.
doug got at the heart of it way back at the be/g when he asked carrol what his answer to the "what is to be done" question would be had the USG done everything perfectly (from a lefty perspective) and had we known exactly who the perps were, only to be faced by an afghanistan who was unwilling to turn ObL Inc over.
if your answer is to do nothing because, in the end, the US has done far worse and, indeed, actually caused all the problems, so it has no right to demand justice from the perps, so the US casualties had to be taken: we deserved it.
for mine, this is where one should concentrate one's argument, rather than make other disingenuous arguments that appeal to other rationales against war: intolerance of any form of violence, enlightened self-interest, etc.
kelley
From the YeahSureRightFW Dept: "If young women go for older men and vice-versa, who cares? The problem is the asymmetries in wealth and power between individuals which make one person more dependent on/vulnerable to the other, usually the woman. If we could eliminate class, innumerable social problems would be solved virtually overnight."