----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Grimes" <cgrimes at rawbw.com> To: <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Cockburn on "crackpot realism"
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> Also, it is artificial to suggest the choice is between supporting
> The Nation on their war stance or defending civil liberties. The two
> are not necessarily related. (Chip Berlet)
>
> ----------
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> Take it further.
>
> The only reason that there are civil liberities and civil rights is
> because some group of people in the past refused to support the
State
> without these guarantees. The arguement you make above assumes that
> rights issue from the State. But rights are unalienable do not issue
> from the state and exist independent of the state. This sets up a
> cycle of endless civil unrest, resistance and war against the
> suppression, oppression, and aggession by the state against its
> people.
========== Um, Jeremy Bentham? Oliver Wendell Holmes? Louis Brandeis? Morris Cohen?
An 'origins' problem, bigtime.
Ian
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> This in my view is the proper relationship between the people and
the
> state. It is the reciprocal to the State's view of the people as a
> stiff necked and recluctant animal that needs be steered and
cajoled,
> alternating between sticks and carrots.
>
> Niether side owes alligence to the other, rather they are always in
> conflict.
>
> Chuck Grimes
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