>>> sokol at jhu.edu 01/11/01 09:40AM >>>
At 05:07 PM 1/10/01 -0500, Charles wrote:
>Actually, as your dialogue suggests, cases of hate murder, don't allow for
much differentiation between a hate murder and other murders, since the
potential punishment of any murder is usually the maximum penalty (either
life or death penalty), so there isn't any room for punishing the "hate" in
the mental element. The same with a hate assault less than murder.
>
>So, the only area left to differentiate these statutes from murder,
assault or other statutes is nipping the hate murders in the bud before
they occur by punishing advocacy of fascistic racism , as in the historical
examples of the Nazis and the KKK. See archives for several threads on
outlawing the Nazis and KKK ( with me and maybe Ken Lawrence the only ones
arguing on this side of it ).
>
But the "hate crime" laws are intended to punish the actual perpetrator, not the advocate.
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CB: No, there is a provision in the UN Convention on incitement or some other inchoate form of offense ( I am not sure if I recall the exact term). That is, there is an international criminal statutory provision on just promoting it without actually committing a murder or other physical act.
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So following your argument, singling out "hate motivation" has virtually zero effect on punishment, and it also seems to have near zero effect on advocacy, since one can safely advocate bigotry as long as one is smart enough not to do what one says.
As I understand it, the advocacy of bigotry can fall under the encouraging crime laws, no? Do the hate crime laws apply here? If not, the 'hate crime' concept seems to be another diversion into psychology, as opposed to real crackdown on fascist groups and their sponsors.
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CB: Actually, I don't call it hate crime, I call it anti-genocide statute, according to United Nations, Nuremburg terminology. It is a crime against humanity.
In the U.S. what you say is true in that the UN law has been adopted as a U.S. criminal statute, but with the U.S. First Amendment interpretation of incitement ( see Justin's post on the Brandenberg standard of imminent lawless action) ,so that means Nazis are not prohibited from advocating Nazism in the U.S. ( See internet sites)