>>> cberlet at igc.org 06/29/01 12:32PM >>>
Hi,
Correcting assorted errors of fact by Charles Brown:
The militias continued to grow through 1997, two years after the OKC bombing.
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CB: The Michigan Militias dropped in numbers drastically according to a Detroit New report in the last few weeks
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That there were power struggles within the Michigan militias over the issue of racism and antisemitism demonstrates that there was a split within the movement, thus saying some militia members were leaning toward fascism and some were not is in fact accurate.
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CB: This doesn't correct any factual statement by me
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The support for the German Nazis came not from the 1% big bad booghies, but from large numbers of middle class voters.
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CB: The voting support. Dimitrov and the Comintern never claimed that the main voting support for the Nazis came from big boogies, obviously, since they are such a small portion of the populous. But anybody with half a thought can see that the communist concept of ruling class refers to a tiny minority of the population running society. So, as before fascism the German ruling class, a tiny minority , ran German society during fascism.
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Fascism can exist as a social movement as well as a state regime.
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CB: Dimitrov says this. I never said it couldn't . That's why it is accurate to refer to the KKK or militias or other U.S. rightwng movements as proto-fascist.
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Misplaced hysteria over impending fascism and "fascist" groups by liberals and CP types results in collaboration with government repression.
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CB: "Misplaced hysteria" would be a slanderous characterization of my approach to this. It comes from your confused talking all over the place and misrepresenting most of what I have said on this thread.
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It happened in the 1940s and it is happening now. Brown scares result in the passage of repressive legislation. Most recently the 1996 legislation that is being used against Arabs and Muslims. Also the government repression applauded when used against the militias is now being used against anti-globalization demonstrators. Can conspiracy or RIco indictments be far behind?
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CB: RICCO was passed related to organized crime, not militias. Anti"terrorism" legislation was not passed because of rightwing threats , but because of hyping U.S. war spending.
In general, the U.S. has had an extreme lack of "Brown scares". The U.S. has enthusiasm about "browns" , i.e. rightwingers.
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I do not like the vigilante militias and am not apologizing for them. To claim I support them in any way is reprehensible. All I am saying is that as awful as they are, they are not all armed neonazi terrorists.
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CB: They have protofascist elements among them. You said it right here on this post. Your argumentation continues to be confused and self-contradictory ( and as far as I can tell it's not any conscious dialectics you are involved in).
McVeigh was never in any militia.
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CB: How do you know he was and didn't tell you ? His anti-federal govt. rhetoric is identical to a lot of militia talk
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No one in a militia group appears to have been involved in the bombing. Terry Nichols brother once attended a milita meeting in Michigan. Nichols filed some "Patriot" type legal documents. McVeigh and Nichols sold survivalist trinkets at gun shows attended by some militia types. I don't like guilt by association.
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CB: Who cares what you like ? That's evidence supporting my claim.
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CB: The KKK in the 1920's were proto-fascists in the way Hitler and his grouping were. The only reason they weren't full blown fascists is that they didn't take state power. You can't wait until proto-fascists take state power to identify them , because then it's too late. Same with the militias today. You can't wait until they get powerful enough to really be state power fascists. There is not premature anti-fascism. Get it ?
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Yes, Charles, I get it. I have spent the last 25 years working against right-wing groups and government repression.
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CB: You must think you are the only one. We have spent the last 80 years fighting fascists. Starting with Gramsci and the Italian CP against Mussolini. We defeated the Nazis. We being the Communists.
We have been fighting the KKK since the late 1800's. We, being Black people.
You are a new kid on the block in this struggle.
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f you read "Right-Wing Populism in America" you will see the detailed arguments against guilt by association, hysterial Brown Scares, and collaboration with government repression against the right. The latter tendency results in laws being turned around and being used against the left. Government repression should be opposed no matter what the political pedigree of the targets. The militias were never abouit to take state poewr. Clinton had state power and used the hysteria over the militias to pass even more repressive legislation and to get public support for increased surveillance and use of informers. Now all of this is being turned against the left.
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CB: I already get the drift of your argument. I have argued at length on this list against an analogous argument on outlawing fascistic racist speech. Guilt by association is not an accurate description of my argument or Dimitrov's or the others who have been in this fight longer than you.
Charles--people like you are responsible for this.
-Chip Berlet
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CB: It is people like me who defeated the Nazis.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-lbo-talk at lists.panix.com
> [mailto:owner-lbo-talk at lists.panix.com]On Behalf Of Charles Brown
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 10:52 AM
> To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com
> Subject: RE: Defining Fascism
>
<<SNIP>>