Anti-Zionism Is Racism

[Forstater, Mathew]

but why does the right for Jews to have a state (and I think this is
problematic--there are tons of 'peoples' that don't have their own
'countries'--except that they do in the sense that they have a
country--the country they live in--the country just isn't a country
defined by their religion or ethnicity.  One can be a Jew and an
American, for example. What people might support is the right of people
not to be displaced from their own land--defined by any reasonable
recent historical basis--liked their families have lived their for
hundreds of years until foreigners came in to destroy their villages and
chase them out and make them second class citizens.) why does the right
for a Jews to have a state imply they have a right to have a stste in
*Palestine.* I am first and foremost for the right to self-determination
of all peoples who have been Colonized and/or Enslaved by and/or as a
result of European Capitalist Imperialism. Any other cases after that I
will consider on a case by case basis. I see no problem whatsoever in
taking a position that recognizes the historical specificity of European
Capitalist Imperialism. The right to self-determination for the
Non-Aligned Movement, for example, which included African Americans,
Pan-Africanist Afro-Caribeans, and Palestinians (Bandung, etc.). Get a
Peters Projection map and locate every area that Europeans
invaded--first priority is self-determination for all those areas. If
Europeans are living there as a result of the colonialist legacy, they
should first admit that they are guests there, and then participate in
promoting true democracy, where they may participate, but not with
special privileges. Is there some inconsistency in this position?

-----Original Message-----
From: Max Sawicky [mailto:sawicky at bellatlantic.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 3:59 PM
To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com
Subject: RE: Anti-Zionism Is Racism

I wasn't trying to pick a fight on this.
I was partly agreeing with part of what
Leo said, regarding the difficulty of
sorting out why some on the left support
some nationalisms and not others.

If you want to say, following Carrol,
that any nationalism supported by the U.S.
should be opposed because of the U.S. role
in the world, that is defensible, though I
happen to disagree.

If, on the other hand, you support a
particular nationalism on the grounds that
peoples *in general* have a *right* to be free
from foreign domination, then you are obliged
to support all nationalisms, not just the ones
the U.S. opposes.

To bring it closer to home, if I support
Black nationalism on the grounds that African-
Americans have a right to autonomous development,
including self-segregation along the lines that
Art McGee raised recently, then my support cannot
be conditional on your autonomous development
following particular lines congenial to me.
If you support autonomy for others, you have
to let go.

In the same vein, if we say that Palestinians have
a right to self-determination, not because the U.S.
opposes an independent Palestine, but because
self-determination is a right, then Jews have
a right to a state as well.  Jews are no less a
nation than Palestinians.  This raises the huge
problem of how two such states could co-exist,
but that's a practical issue that doesn't
cancel anyone's 'right' to self-determination,
if we think there is such a right.  (I do.)

mbs

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lbo-talk at lists.panix.com
[mailto:owner-lbo-talk at lists.panix.com]On Behalf Of Charles Brown
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 4:22 PM
To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com
Subject: RE: Anti-Zionism Is Racism


>>> sawicky at bellatlantic.net 07/28/01 05:02PM >>>

I have noted previously on PEN-L that some leninist
support for nationalism is totally hypocritical,
since it is premised entirely on opposition to
the U.S. or Europe, not on any commitment to
ideas of freedom or autonomy per se.  But we
don't have many leninists here on LBO, and perhaps
none for whom my criticism applies.

((((((((((

CB: That sounds like a provocation here.

And I sure hope Michael gave you a reprimand when you said on PEN-L.