``You cover a lot of territory. I want just to nibble at a few odd bits of it. The assumption that the Greeks _had_ any "collective identity as a people" is extremely tenuous. I am willing to listen to arguments to the contrary, but I myself doubt that "identity as a people" is a meaningful phrase before 19th century Europe -- and has ceased to be meaningful in the last century. And after a pause of some minutes, it occurs to me that it was only in the 19th century that "work of art" became a generally recognized category. Neither Rubens nor Handel nor Milton ever dreamt that they were creating "works of art." Do nationalism and "works of art" somehow go together as creations of the individualized social relations of capitalism? Just a stray thought...'' Carrol Cox
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Yes, I know. I glossed over whole histories. But I had to pick an example of a commonly known mythological system and use it, in order to set up a comparison with the US. The Olympiad was the choice. Whether Greeks considered themselves a single people or not is of course highly questionable since they spent most of their history trying kill each other or extort land, slaves, and wealth from one another. However, they did define themselves in relation to barbarians, their universal Other, they shared a common language, codified into writing, shared most daily customs, and religious practices all of which were focus on the Olympiad. They of course might not have seen themselves as a collective people, but rather consider themselves `civilization'. And they changed their tune over time. By the Hellenic era when they were at the hight of their imperial conquests, they had cohered and systematized enough of their culture, society, and its mythic elaborations in arts, literature, law, architecture, city design and general economics to make it transportable from Sicily to the frontiers of the Persian Empire. I could have used ancient Persia, if I had known enough about them, since they were engaged in a similar process---but I would have to have presented that before an Islamic audience to create a similar resonance.
As to the idea of a work of art, this is one of those controversies that I don't take too seriously, since I long ago got rid of the idea that art came from galleries and museums. I understand that is a common assumption about our idea of art. But it takes just a slight changed of perspective to dilate the concept of art, back into its meaning as objects derived from a master technique and craft.
There is an additional distinction to notice too. Rubens for example was making large scale public art. Easel painting was at the time, more of a genre, a minor speciality that was confined to half portraits, landscapes or scenic views, still lifes, and devotional works done on a small scale specifically made for private possession. In fact oil painting on canvas was invented just for this purpose. The Dutch (Vermeer for example) were particularly noted for smaller work sold as `art' in the sense that we use the term. The linkage between a private art for personal possession and a social context, would be the rise of bourgeois capitalism. Under this system generic devotional works, landscapes and still lifes were made with out knowing who would purchase the work in advance and without commissions or patronage. They were either sold through the studio or workshop, or by engaging an agent who would display and sell them for a commission. A century earlier than Vermeer or Rubens, Durer used to take seasonal trips to Amsterdam and sell his woodcuts and engravings there. I think the system he used was to set up a stall and go around to printers shops. So the development of small private works of art as portable objects, genre painting in oil in particular, is primarily a development due to early capitalism. That is, the shift of wealth from noble inheritance and land, to urban merchantial and commerical wealth. The popularity of oil painting follows that economic shift first among the Italians, then the French and the Dutch. The materials and methods had to be scaled up in various techical advances in order to accomplish larger public works, which were displacing fresco during the era. Fresco finally was reserved for ceilings and odd shaped patches of architectural detail.
As for Americans having a national identity, I admit its getting weaker every decade. However, it is still very much alive and well, despite the thinness of the facade and its patent absurdity. I mean that was the point to buying the Time magazine special collectors edition. It is a definitive catalog of this mythological entity. I needed a reference like Graves, so I bought it and can now point to it and say with complete authority, there is our legendry Mr or Ms So-in-So. See Time says so.
Of course there are un-american activities, treason and other high crimes and misdemeanors, and they are profound violations of the mythic archetype. That's why they are wrong beyond words and their crimes are punishable by death!
Why just yesterday we cooked some guy in Terra Haute. And there's Timothy McV, last week who took the big ride for besmirching the all American way of life. McV is more important and problematical than whats-his-name, not because he killed more people, but because he blew up a government temple and its priesthood---he attacked our sacred national bureaucracy, emblem of the state, and holy of holies in the secular universe. This is like committing rape and murder in the temple of Athene. We were so outraged we built a new temple on top of the ruins of the old temple with great fanfare and solemnity.
Geeze Carol, didn't you watch it on TV as the week long media build up to our national day of reconciliation and healing, complete with human sacrifice? All the debate about whether to show the actual death ritual and so on. I imagine it was kind of a let down as human sacrifices go. If America is going to survive, we are going to have to come up with a lot more drama and action than a lethal injection. We need something more like the coliseum and a few Christians.
Carrol, I can tell you are not a believer. I'd watch my step out there in central Illinois, if I were you. They fly the flag even when its not flag day---which I always take as a bad sign. And, you're just a tad too close to Terra Haute, if you know what I mean.
Chuck Grimes