This is true, of course. That's why I asked if the number of anecdotes could be expanded, which may lead to marginally more valid conclusions. Are there studies with controls? Christopher Rhoades Dÿkema
Justin Schwartz wrote:
> Anecdotal impressions without any controls are pretty valueless. For what it
> is worth, which is not much, I taught undergrads at Michigan from 1979-88
> (with some years off), at Kalamazoo College in 1988-89, and at Ohio State in
> 1989-94. The undegrads at K were off the csale great, better than most grad
> students even at Michigan, so leave them aside. I was not ever particularly
> impressed with the undergrads even at more selective/prestigious Michigan,
> and I was not underwhelmed in comparison with those at Ohio State. I had
> some good and mostly indifferent students at both schools. Over 15 years of
> teaching at two big Midwestern universities, I would not say I saw a
> "decline" in the caliber of the undergrads. --jks
>
> >
> >I talked with a friend about this distressing message. He is an academic,
> >and I am
> >not. My parents, however, were academics, at a college (later a state U)
> >not very
> >far from where Yates is about to retire. My friend's parents were not
> >academics.
> >
> >My friend agrees with Yates' perception of students as increasingly blunted
> >and
> >stupefied. (Hope he and Yates agree with my paraphrase.). I however clearly
> >recollect my parents complaining about their students being like this back
> >in the
> >fifties. I actually see improvements in the general level of literacy and
> >culture
> >in the US, from my childhood. Abysmal, of course, compared to Europe, also
> >compared
> >to the less provincial parts of the US, but still better than it was. For
> >example,
> >when I was growing up in the Mahoning valley there was no bookstore, and my
> >father
> >simply maintained an account at B. H. Blackwell's in Oxford, England
> >because it
> >was simplest to buy books from the catalog.
> >
> >I've spent my adult life in New York City, and frequently get into
> >discussions with
> >natives of NYC in which I point out that they fail to appreciate positive
> >developments in the provinces. On a different level, they cannot believe
> >that
> >McDonald's is an actual improvment in cuisine over what prevailed as cheap
> >food
> >away from home in the midwest in the fifties. On still a different level,
> >of
> >course, we must celebrate Mr. José Bové's efforts to counter the
> >McDonaldization of
> >cuisine in France, but then for the French, it is a step down, not up.
> >
> >I wonder if other academics on this list could respond to the question of
> >whether
> >or not students are or are not effectively stupider than they used to be.
> >
> >Christopher Rhoades Dÿkema
> >
> >
> >
> >Michael Yates wrote:
> >
> > > Dear friends,
> > >
> > > I have rejoined a couple of these lists after a hiatus of
> >several
> > > months. I am about to retire from my job as a college teacher, after 32
> > > long and, of late, nearly unbearable years. I have spoken about this
> > > before, but in my view academe in is a state of paralysis, at least as
> > > far as it being a center of critical thought and action. It is true and
> > > to be highly commended that students on some campuses have begun to
> > > express outrage at the state of their campuses and the state of the
> > > world at large. If only more of their professors joined with them.
> > > Unfortunately most professors, including those supposedly on the left,
> > > sometimes talk a good game but seldom do much else. For every David
> > > Montgomery or Jim Blaut or Angela Davis, there are scores of perpetual
> > > conference goers and vita builders, intent on making names for
> > > themselves and impressing their more orthodox colleagues, while they
> > > oppose their graduate students' attempts to organize and mix and mingle
> > > with the common people only by accident (note that I am not here
> > > speaking of those admirable souls who labor, often heroically, in the
> > > backwaters of academe, themselves badly exploited workers). Meanwhile
> > > the colleges and universities become ever more like businesses,
> > > becoming, as David Noble correctly points out, primary centers of
> > > capital accumulation.
> > >
> > > And if there are some students who have begun to see the light
> >(though
> > > as Doug Henwood and Lisa Featherstone have pointed out, they seem to be
> > > in dire need of a theory to guide them. Where are their professors?),
> > > there are tens of thousands more who have not only not seen the light
> > > but are actively opposed to it. Racism, sexism, homophobia, violence of
> > > all kinds, hyper-individualism – al are alive and well on our nation's
> > > campuses. Not to mention a kind of almost wilful ignorance that has to
> > > be experienced to be believed. I used to point out to students in some
> > > of my classes the deleterious effects of long hours of labor on a
> > > worker's intelligence. Marx has a good example in Capital, vol. I,
> > > where he quotes a factory inspector, whose interrogation of child mill
> > > workers indicated that they knew virtually nothing. One child said that
> > > a princess was a man, and another did not know that he lived in
> > > England. Herbert Gutman in his book, "Work, Culture, and Society"
> > > quotes a New Jersey inspector to the same effect: One boy thought Europe
> > > was in the moon, while another thought that the word "boy" was a comma.
> > > These days, however, I wonder how much such examples mean. Consider
> > > that I have a student in a seminar on Marx who wrote that the "Communist
> > > Manifesto" is a novel. In my introductory class, a student wrote "The
> > > Unighted States." Another wrote that a good that is not "inferior" (one
> > > for which, other things equal, as income rises, purchases fall) is
> > > "ferior." Still another asked seriously whether it was "demand and
> > > supply" or "supply and demand." In the seminar, after I had explained
> > > Marx's concept of the value of labor power (its value equals the value
> > > of those consumption goods necessary for the worker to continue working
> > > and insure that the worker's children grow up to become workers), I
> > > asked the class what Marx says is the minimum value of labor power. A
> > > student awoke from a dead sleep (this in a class of ten, all sitting
> > > around a seminar table) and blurted out "$5.15!! I have seriously
> > > suggested that our school sell sweatshirts emblazoned with the slogan,
> > > "Proud to be stupid."
> > >
> > > After three decades of increasingly disinterested students,
> > > accommodating faculty, and cynical administrators (who engendered the
> > > climate that encourages the first two), I have found it impossible to
> > > continue. I had to wait til I was 55 to be able to access my pension,
> > > but now that I am of age, I can no longer continue to participate in
> > > this charade. What has saved me from complete demoralization is that
> > > beginning in 1980 I began to teach workers outside of the college. And
> > > for the past two years I have been teaching prisoners. I am curious why
> > > more progressive academics do not do this. It would be a way of
> > > practicing what they preach. For example, I periodically teach
> > > economics to union folks at UMass-Amherst. Now this is supposedly a
> > > hotbed of radical economics. Yet I fly in form Pittsburgh to teach the
> > > class. Where is Bowles or Gintis or Wolfe or Resnick or Pollin?
> > > Perhaps the pay is not high enough or they are away on academic business
> > > (the class is taught while most of the regular students are on break).
> > >
> > > As I wind down my last term, I feel nothing for my academic
> >career. My
> > > wife and I have decided to leave town the week after the term is
> > > finished and never come back. We are giving away nearly all of our
> > > possessions (I have already given away all of my books and journals,
> > > thrown away my notes and files, and put my various awards and plaques in
> > > the trash where they belong). When we are done, we will have a few
> > > personal belongings, a used car, a computer, and of course, my pension.
> > > This has been the most liberating thing I have ever done. We are moving
> > > to Yellowstone Park for the summer to work in a hotel there, she as a
> > > hostess in the restaurant and me as a front-desk clerk. I haven't been
> > > so excited about a new job and a new life in many years. I will
> > > maintain my connection with Monthly Review magazine, and I may move to
> > > New York to work for MR in the future. And of course we will always be
> > > dedicated to the working class from which we came and whose liberation,
> > > while a long way off, is the prerequisite for the creation of a society
> > > with any pretension at all to freedom and democracy.
> > >
> > > Michael Yates
> >
>
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