The bourgeoisie were the first in history to draw the distinction between state and civil society both in theory and in practice. As the first historical form of civil society, characterized as it is by the war of all against all, it is also the most primitive, brutal, barbaric and 'uncivil' form of society free of the state. Only bourgeois forms of social behavior are juridically recognized by the capitalist state as limits upon itself. These archaic forms of behavior are no longer adequate to the requirements of even advanced capitalist society with it highly socialized labor and its race/gender/ethnic mixing, so it is not surprising that individuals, especially in the USA, lack the cultural development necessary for the mediation of social relations in a peaceful and constructive manner independent of the state.
This is not an argument for state intervention to mediate in the stead of a lack of social cultural development. It argues just the opposite - from the side of the oppressed and exploited majority of capitalist civil society - that they be free to resort to whatever means they choose, to resist and overthrow their oppressors and exploiters. The (almost inevitable) barbarism of the methods will be perfectly appropriate to the actual barbarism of capitalist 'civil' society, since further social cultural development is impossible at any given point under capitalism. To expect that everyone will spontaneously behave like a well-educated bourgeois liberal under capitalist conditions of society is a hopeless utopia. And the degree of social cultural development, under any form of society, is the real material index of freedom.
It is for this reason that it is the liberals on this list who fear the masses. They are specifically in fear of what they call the revolutionary "terror". It is this fear that motivates DPs abusive and insulting behavior, his ad hominum references, so characteristic of the liberal style, and especially his troglodyte Cold War style anticommunism. Yoshie has shown an admirable cool in the face of this, one I doubt I could maintain. But then again, I'm an american - and I have gotten my hands dirty and mixed with the commoners many, many times - so waddaya expect if I were to decide to roast someone like Horowitz at the stake using a stack of Brown U. student newspapers as fuel. And if DP tried to stop me, I'd roast him too. I lack Yoshie's culture. I won't be as nice. I'm from one of the less free societies on this earth, where you are only free to be a dumbass, the better to be lectured to by some tongue-clucking liberal.
-Brad Mayer Oakland, CA
>Dennis P.:
>
> > > Furthermore, it is a truth universally acknowledged, that for-profit
> >> textbook publishers, privately-owned newspapers & TV stations,
> >> thousands upon thousands of parochial & provincial school boards, and
> > > so on in the USA must be far more committed to historical truth than
> >> the French government.
> >>
> >> Yoshie
> >
> >That the fact that we live under a corporate oligopoly negates the concept
> >of free speech for all?
>
>No, my comparison is *specific*: France versus the USA today. Which
>has more political freedom? France, I say. Which is more committed
>to historical truth -- the French government or for-profit textbook
>publishers, privately-owned newspapers & TV stations, thousands upon
>thousands of parochial & provincial school boards, and so on in the
>USA? The French government, I believe. Do you disagree?
>
> >I get the feeling that despite all the hot air released on behalf of "the
> >people," that Yoshie and Charles actually fear the people to make up their
> >own minds.
>
>What if the majority of the people make up their own minds & decide
>that fascist opinions should be either banned or tightly regulated,
>as in the case of France? Why distrust the French masses?
>
>The freedom of speech is central to liberalism because it protects
>minority opinions from majority ones. In other words, it is rooted
>in a fear of democracy & distrust of the masses.
>
> >That's why I think you
> >should quit school, Yoshie, so that you can actually work with the people
> >you claim to understand and wish to uplift. The university is not the world.
> >Get out, get your hands dirty, mix with the commoners.
>
>That's what some Americans have already told me, without your
>reminder. I try to pass flyers in opposition to the death penalty,
>for instance. Inevitably, some of them say, "Get a job!" (Sometimes
>worse: "Go back to where you come from!") O, freedom-loving
>Americans! O, humanity!
>
>Yoshie