----- Original Message ----- From: "kelley" <kwalker2 at gte.net> To: <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com>; <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 11:02 PM Subject: Re: Clerical Fascism
<<SNIP>>
> i'm sorry you're not feeling well. i hope you feel better.
Thanks.
> i do think that you treat most of the people you interact with in very
> patronizing and condescending ways. in your last exchange with me, you
> completely misrepresented what i'd said and completely failed to grasp the
> question i was asking. they were questions, actually, that would support
> your point.
I tried repeatedly to understand what your point was in the last exchange and failed. I was not ducking your questions. I did not understand them despite several attempts to try to respond to you. If I fail to grasp the question you are asking, after several tries I figure the polite thing to do is stop yabbering. It wasn't going anywhere. What was I supposed to do?
>
> i didn't say that you invented anything, i pointed out that i can't
> evaluate your claim because it had no context: you pointed to no evidence
> of the David Duke post. we have no idea who posted the articles. i, for
> example, post lefty things at a libertarian-right list. what does that say
> about the recipients of the post on that list? i don't think it says that,
> because they don't respond, that they are interested in the ideas i
> presented. that's just an example of how counting an event without context,
> in the instance you raise, means nothing to me as a social researcher.
I think just posting right-wing material without comment at the present time is a bad idea because the right is trying to recruit from the left. When I said the posts were "uncritical" I meant just that. Just posting these right-wing posts without explanation is a bad idea becasue not everyone will automatically know that they are to be examined as an example of fascist or bigoted recruitment. I have no problem with people posting right-wing material for discussion if it is framed in some way. But I have even criticized my friend Michael P. for doing it. And as a social researcher, may I ask if you have visited the web page I posted and read any of the articles that talk about this by other authors? Because if you have, I would expect you to understand the problem or at least be aware of the argument and be able to disagree with it. The irony here, is that what I am arguing is that the lack of context is what is wrong with such posts.
> i can't speak for everyone, but i guess i'm tired of feeling as if i'm
> somehow one of your enemies, one of the folks who is seduced by david duke.
> you never come out and say it, but you sure come across as suggesting that
> anyone who disagrees with you is supporting those on the left who might
> embrace david duke. perhaps you could give me and example of a real life
> person on this list, pen-l, marxism who does, then i might understand.
>
I just had a long and interesting back and forth with Charles Jannuzi that, despite a few barbs, turned into an exchange where we ended up agreeing to disagree and along the way I certainly learned a few things, and I expect he did as well because he thanked me for a bibliography.
I do not think people on this list are dupes of David Duke. I am tired of people starting out discussions by suggesting I have no idea what I am talking about. Unlike some on this list, I generally only try to engage in discussions on topics where I have actually done a serious amount of research. OK if you disagree with my conclusions, but I do get tired of the responses like yours and the one by Tanya Ramzotti (and the original response by Charles Jannuzi) that essentially say "what the hell are you talking about you ignorant oaf?"
You can try to characterize you last post in some other way, but may I remind you of your phrases:
>snip the list of people intended to authorize chip's
>claims. logical fallacies, you say?
>on the Internet, every man has a 10" rod
>(and the rest pretend to be women).
It is not a bad debate technique to say others have similar concerns and then post the URL where you can go read them.
Now it is bedtime for Bonzo...
-Chip