On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Brenda Rosser wrote:
> (9) America (and its allies) are actually engaged in a breach of
> international law. The US is engaged in indiscriminate murder.
DR: "Down the road of endless moralism we go... Military operations are an extremely discriminate form of violence. They have to be critiqued as policy. Railing on about the Great Satan Running Dog Imperialist Weasels (we'll call 'em GSRDIW for short) doesn't get us very far." _____________ BR: 'Military operations are an extremely 'discriminate form of violence'?? How does military action discriminate between 'the enemy' and civilians?? When has it? You said: that military actions "have to be critiqued as policy". You said also: "But government agencies routinely don't talk to each other"...maybe you can't have your argument both ways. I mean, a 'critique' of military action implies some discussion and understanding between various branches of government...doesn't it? _____________
> * In an Oct. 14 KPFA interview, journalist Tariq Ali noted that, according
> to his contacts, Turkey has already been pressed to assist the US in a
> possible invasion of Iraq in the next five months. (The US, the world's
> judge, jury and executioner, has made no attempt to conceal its expanding
> war.)
DR:
What the GSRDIW would like to do, and what the EU and East Asia will let
them do, are two very different things. One must distinguish between what
the ruling class says, and what it does.
__________ BR: The US ruling class said "let's have a war in Afghanistan" then went in and had a war. I understand the same thing went on in Vietnam and the Gulf (to say the least)...maybe you could fill me in on when the ruling class didn't have it's way 'as a rule', I mean. ___________
> * In the Wall Street Journal, James Bandler and Marcus Walker exposed the
> direct and still active links between the Bush and bin Laden families,
DR:
They're oil/construction millionaires. We knew this already. Your point?
_________
BR:
An article was posted previously on lbo-talk describing the financial links
that existed between Bush and Bin Laden. Bush Senior is in business with a
consortium owned by Bin Laden's family (check the link out that I posted at
:http://www.judicialwatch.org/press_release.asp?pr_id=1624).
__________
> "The FBI pointedly said -- early -- they knew about terrorists rotating
> through Rudi Dekkers' flight school. They leave hanging the question of
why
> they did nothing to shut it down."
DR:
How could they? How could anyone know that S11 was coming? They were more
worried that Bin Laden was training pilots for his business empire. But
S11 lay in the future, and it's likely only the pilots knew the real
purpose of the mission; the rest were hired muscle."
___________
BR:
Hang on, the FBI said they knew 'terrorists' were training to be pilots.
Previous information released on lbo-talk also indicated that the FBI and/or
CIA knew of intentions by 'terrorists' to hijack aeroplanes. Surely they
could put the two bits of information together and take some action to
prevent the pilot training from continuing? Then, the same 'terrorists'
hopped on some planes simultaneously on the same day!!....sounds a bit
suspicious to me (but then I'm not a qualified 'anti-terrorist' agent).
___________
> Federal agents flash pictures at a South Florida bar of the two terrorist
> pilots who just a day earlier had demolished the World Trade Center. One
of
> them drank Stolichnaya vodka for three straight hours, one bartender
> remembers.
DR:
That's exactly what most folks would do if they knew they were going to
be charcoal the next day. The pilots weren't peasants from the periphery,
they were thoroughly Westernized, with Western-style problems of
committing acts of high-tech violence.
__________
BR:
So they weren't fundamentalists? That suggests the western allies may need
to look beyond fundamentalists groups to target (rather than the Taliban, I
mean). My reading of the history of the Middle East informs me that there
has been very strong feeling across the region against Western interference
for a VERY LONG TIME. What would be the point of targetting one ME country
when the whole region is seething with resentment? It's a 'losing battle'
from where I see it.
The ME has always had contact with 'the west' and made a conscious decision not to follow in the footsteps of the 'barbarians' from the west. Imagine how they must have felt with respect to their being subjected to creeping western colonialism and now a permanent standing army in SA.
"Their bellies are big, their colour is pale, their hair long and lank. They lack keenness of understanding and clarity of intelligence, and are overcome by ignorance and foolishness, blindness and stupidity." An 11th Century Qadi of Toledo
"The peoples of the north are those for whom the sun is distant from the Zenith...cold and damp prevail in these regions, and snow and ice follow one another in endless succession. The warm humour is lacking among them; their bodies are large, their nature gross, their manners harsh, their understanding dull and their tongues heavy....their religious beliefs lack solidity...those of them who are furthest to the north are the most subject to stupidity, grossness and brutishness." 10th Century geographer Mas udi __________
> Afghan route for Caspian oil" Of course there's also Arundhati Roy's
article
> "War is Peace" which I'm sure you've seen.
DR:
Roy condemns the US bombing, but notes that it's likely al-Qaeda was
indeed behind S11.
__________
BR:
What evidence does 'Roy' have that implicates al-Qaeda, beyond that
published already? (I don't know the guy).
__________
> JOHN J. MARESCA, VICE PRESIDENT UNOCAL in testimony before a House
> committee, February 12, 1998:"From the outset, we have made it clear that
> construction of our proposed pipeline cannot begin until a recognized
> government is in place that has the confidence of governments, lenders and
DR:
News flash: there's a ton of countries in the world happily exporting all
sorts of oil, ranging from Norway to Vietnam. Just because Unocal would
like to do a deal, doesn't mean bombs fall.
___________
BR:
That's great news! Then it's quite feasible for the US to pull their troops
out of the ME immediately..and the Gulf War didnt have to take place after
all! Of course the oil corporations don't have much 'pull' either, do they?
Nor does an unelected president with a oil slick on his finger.
___________
> been provided the information. None of this happened. The terrorists
managed
> to walk through a wide variety of governmental firewalls, up the ramps to
> those aircraft, and into the cockpits unmolested.
DR:
Indeed. Noone foresaw what was coming. But government agencies routinely
don't talk to each other, and the biggest mistake of all was that the
authorities in the EU, who had a fair amount of info on the pilots,
weren't routinely talking with their US counterparts.
_____________
BR:
Yep, the whole Clinton anti-terrorist strategy in 1998 was a bit of a farce
for sure.
_____________
The problem with conspiracy theories is, the assumption is that someone, somewhere, is actually In Charge -- an interesting variant of Weber's vanishing mediator, actually. The reality is that history is made by massive, gigantic, bumbling bureaucracies, bound up in historical constellations of power, which need to be carefully analyzed and decoded. ______________ BR: No-one 'in charge' sounds like 'anarchy' to me. Chuck G, are you celebrating?! 'Bumbling bureaucracies' sound like a real knockover for the al-Qaeda.
PS: here's a song for you:
What's Goin' on! Marvin Gaye
Mother, mother! there's too many of you crying Brother, brother, brother! there's far too many of you dying You know we've got to find a way To bring some lovin here today!.yeah
Father, father! We don't need to escalate You see, war is not the answer for only love can conquer hate You know we've got to find a way to bring some lovin' here today
Picket life and picket size Don't punish me with brutality Talk to me So you can see Oh what's goin on, what's goin' on, yeah, what's goin' on!
Mother, mother, everybody thinks we're mad Oh but who are they are to judge us simply because our hair is black
Oh you know we've got to find a way to bring some understanding here today
Picket life and picket size Don't punish me with brutality Come on talk to me! so you can see What's goin' on, what's goin' on Tell me what's goin' on. I'll tell you what's goin' on!
Right on! Right on! Right on, babe! ______________ BJR