kelley wrote:
>
> Countries that support them Chris. We fucking support them. If you think
> that it was bin Ladan, I don't, but if YOU do, then guess what? A
> Congressional Report earlier this year spelled it out. All countries habor
> bin Ladan and his financial networks in one way or another. But there are
> 34 who can be directly said to be "harboring" bin Ladan and Al Qaeda. That
> is, we know they're in this country plotting and that they probably used
> this country to raise funds for terrorist
> activities. See: htttp://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20010914.atc.15.ram
>
> At any rate, not to speak for everyone, but i don't think that anyone here
> thinks that the people who did this shouldn't be brought to justice. i, for
> one, think they should and i'm pretty sure that others here also want that.
> even Yoshie wants that, though not in the way you want it.
>
> I'm not too sure bombing Afghanistan back to the stone ages is the answer
> since it's already one of the poorest countries on the planet. What exactly
> are we going to bomb. Do you really think OBL is there? I don't. How do we
> know where he is, b/c we sure sucked at following his activities before
> this. I don't even think OBL did it to begin with and I don't understand
> why you or anyone else has accepted gov't claptrap and the work of bumbling
> idiots in the CIA. (see crits of the CIA in The Atlantic Monthly printed
> _before_ this happened as well as in Stratfor's analysis. They suggest that
> all our clues thus far have been a foil to send us off on wild goose
> chases. Personally, I happen to think whoever did this is who we least
> expect and, no, not the government.)
>
> Have we retaliated against terrorism in the past and gotten it completely
> wrong? You bet your ass we have. Did we kill Quadaffi? No. We killed his
> infant son though. Niiiiiiice. Maybe it was Quadaffi, eh Chris? Did our
> strikes back against terrorists work anyway? No, they haven't worked
> because that was putting gauze pads on gangrene. Will flexing our muscles
> by dragging out the cruise missles fix the conditions under which terrorism
> is nurtured? No, probably not.
>
> Did you think the terrorists wouldn't know our likely response? Did you
> think that they were going to hide out where we expected them to hide out?
> They're probably right here in this country, and why not?
>
> I don't speak for everyone and I don't know what Marta means but maybe she
> just doesn't like justice through war, maybe she thinks justice through the
> legal system is the answer -- just like we did for McVeigh and McNichols.
> What's the difference in your mind chris? Because I'm sure McV and McN sure
> would have liked to have destroyed 6k or more people, don't you? Or did
> you think that we shoulda blown their brains out without a trial? If you
> extend that right to them, why? If you didn't bitch at people who weren't
> calling for a lynching then, why are you now?
>
> I sure would like to see justice. If I had my druthers, I'd like to engage
> in some sophisticated, long, slow, patient psywar against the mf's so that
> they don't know how we're doing it and they will be driven mad wondering
> when and if they are going to die. Nothing we've done actually justifies
> this kind of behavior. Nothing. And, if we discover it is someone who has a
> bone to pick with our policies in the ME, then I'd also like to see us tell
> Israel where to get off: by demanding more humane policies in the middle
> east, a recognition of all the terrorism that others have suffered for
> years at the hands of Israel, a country which is basically our tool. If
> these were people from the middle east, people opposed to Israel and the
> US, and I still don't actually believe that yet or that hatred of the
> US/Israel is even the reason behind these attacks, then there is some
> serious work that we can do to alleviate the conditions under which
> terrorism is propagated.
>
> Kelley
>
> > >
> > > To me this 4% showing against the war mongers is more disheartening
> > > than the entire past week of events. Since I'm certain that Gallup
> > > did not only poll the ruling class, a majority of the 92% in favor of
> > > retaliation are likely working class Americans. So while some
> > > subscribers on this list may think that the working class is going to
> > > create some vital change in the world, that seems a more distant hope
> > > than ever in the USA. All it takes is good old fashioned nationalism
> > > to convert them all to ruling class ideologies.
> > >
> >
> >The vast majority of U.S. Citizens either knew someone who lost their life
> >or the life of a loved one on Tuesday. It was as if we, as a nation, all
> >know somebody who was murdered - and we want justice. I didn't know
> >feelings of justice were a ruling class ideology.
> >
> >Furthermore, the idea that the working class could go to work one day and be
> >brutally murdered by faceless terrorists would make terrorists more of an
> >enemy to the working class than to the ruling class who are not in harms
> >way. Might I remind you that the vast majority of those who lost their
> >lives were not world leaders - but everyday grunt workers.
> >
> >I cannot imagine anyone, even vaguelly patriotic U.S. Citizen as well as
> >citizens of England, Germany, India, etc. that also lost countrymen,
> >witnessing the events of Tuesday and not be fully ready to go to war with
> >whoever is directly responsible or the countries that support them.
-- Marta Russell author, Los Angeles, CA http://disweb.org/ Beyond Ramps: Disability at the End of the Social Contract http://www.commoncouragepress.com/russell_ramps.html