Justin writes:
"There can be positive right to the means to get these things [food, etc.], namely money. Make it a right to have a job that pays a minimum remuneration, or to receive a subsidity if you can't work, or if you do nonmarket work that is valuable to society (raising children, for example). You can enforce your right against the govt, go to the Labor Dept to get your job, Health & Human Services to get your subsidy. Absolutely none, not a single tiny one, of the problems you raise arise."
Remember, I agree with you about money, but look at the vast difference between a positive right to this "commodity" and absolutely any other. When things go wrong, you are suing the federal government (or its agent) because the federal government is the sole originator of fiat credit money. They have the absolute and theoretically limitless ability to fulfill the contract and it implies no takings. No such contract is possible for apples or CT scans. Of course the government cannot guarantee the purchasing power of the money they dole out. That is outside their purview.
I write : "Positive rights turn inevitably into a quagmire."
Justin writes: "Not so. Show how with my proposal."
Your proposal is completely different from other positive rights. It's unique for the reasons I cite above.
Justin writes:
"A right in morality is something that oughtn't be taken away from you without your say-so. A right in law is a claim which you can a legally enforce. So how is a right you have on the basis of a govt program not a right?"
The proponents of a food right claim that, in the name of justice, an a priori right to food should be recognized. This is both impossible and morally wrong because it implies takings without recompense from people who are not party to the contract. Under Medicare, for example, the parties to the contract are identified and given rights within the contract but, for example, a doctor need not provide medical care for a Medicare recipient if he so chooses. The difference is between rights within a contract and natural rights, which set the conditions for all contracts.
Justin notes that "even if the populace deciedes by democratic means to kill the Jews or enslave the blacks, they will have violated their (a priori, absolute, extra-historical) rights."
Of course, and another absolute and extra-historical right is the right not to have your property taken without recompense or previous ceding of rights by contract, and not to be forced to provide work against your own will. A right to food implies a violation of both of those a priori rights.
When I say that money is itself a contract of sorts, Justin replies:
"??Not in law. Contract requires definite terms, offer, acceptance, consideration, and is a private agreement that only binds the parties contracting. (Sorry, mention contract to a lawyer, see what happens.) Money's utterly different."
I disagree, counselor. Money is "legal tender" - that which *must* be accepted as payment, but by no means the only thing that *could* be accepted as payment. Look at Russia and Argentina, where the money contract has broken down. Money is a fundamental agreement as to the tender of value in the society. It is a contract among banks and governments and individuals and we know that because money used to be issued by private banks as a privately-issued security (contract).
Justin writes:
"The proposal I'm making has been called "Basic Income" by its advocates (Phillipe van Parijs, for one).
I'm not familiar with the specific proposal but I think you are certainly onto something. Because money is already a universal contract I think that, basically, it can have more terms added to it. Some amount of credit money should go hand-in-hand with citizenship. Whether it should be an income or a credit or an outright grant, I can't say at the moment, however, I think it should likely be a credit rather than an income. The income could be a revenue stream from the investment of the credit. That would make the government the bank/investment bank for the nation, rather than a giant, national dole.