----- Original Message ----- From: Reed Tryte <reed_tryte at yahoo.com> To: <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 10:25 PM Subject: Israel/Hamas vs. the US/Al-Qaida
>
Heck of post Reed...spot on.-Tony
> Peter,
>
> I realize I may be taking some things about Israel as
> obvious that may not be, because my family has a lot
> of Israeli friends and I have Israeli friends who are
> here in the US. But I must repeat that both you and
> Hitchens are reproducing -- EXACTLY -- the arguments
> and tone that are used by Likudniks and former Israeli
> progressives who've now seen the light about the evil
> Palestinians. I'm serious: I've heard Israelis (as
> well as people here) saying these things almost word
> for word. (Maybe Bryan can speak to whether I'm
> generally right about this.)
>
> Nonetheless, you believe that Israel/Hamas and the
> US/Al-Qaida are very different situations. As I
> understand it, this is based on two points:
>
> (1) The Arab/Muslim world doesn't have big, legitimate
> grievances against the US and the West generally.
> Therefore (2) Al-Qaida demands are completely
> preposterous, and there's nothing the US can do
> (except killing them) that will lessen the danger of
> Al-Qaida.
>
> Regarding (1), I haven't run through the ugly history
> of the US and the West generally in the mideast
> because I assume you know it. But I will do so if you
> want. It is significantly more gruesome than even
> Israel's actions. And of course it INCLUDES massive
> support for Israel's actions.
>
> For now, though, let's keep just to the specific
> complaints of Al-Qaida. The three main ones to date
> have been American troops in Saudi Arabia, the
> treatment of Iraq, and Israel.
>
> Before saying anything else, I should emphasize that I
> take it as given that Osama bin Laden couldn't
> possibly care less about the Palestinians or Iraqi
> children -- just as Saddam Hussein couldn't care less
> about Palestinians or Iraqi children, and just as
> Donald Rumsfeld couldn't care less about the gassing
> of the Kurds or indeed the 3,000 Americans who died on
> September 11. In all three cases they use the
> suffering of people far from power to whip up support
> for their own ambitions. I guarantee you Osama bin
> Laden would be happy to see every Palestinian dead if
> it served his purposes, just as Donald Rumsfeld would
> be happy to see you and me dead.
>
> BUT, Osama bin Laden talks about these things, just as
> Donald Rumsfeld weeps crocodile tears over 9/11,
> because they know these are real grievances of their
> audiences.
>
> Regarding Israel, I don't think I have to make the
> case to you. Its actions are a source of anger and
> bitterness to the entire Arab world.
>
> Regarding the deaths of Iraqi children, it cuts
> absolutely no ice in the Arab world to say that
> Hussein and bin Laden aren't simpatico -- or even that
> Hussein deserves some of the blame. True. So what? The
> point to them is that there are a fucking lot of dead
> kids, and America's hands are very bloody.
>
> Regarding the soldiers in Saudi Arabia, you can say
> that's weak tea. Well, to many Muslims IT'S NOT. You
> saying that it is doesn't make it so, most especially
> in the context of other US actions -- it's just
> another humiliation on top of everything else.
> Moreover, it's the height of arrogance for Americans
> to say: ho-hum, big deal, our troops are stationed in
> some country. Nobody anywhere likes troops from
> somewhere else in their country, particularly from
> foreign cultures. Believe me, Americans wouldn't love
> it so much if there were a lot of Saudi troops
> stationed in the US.
>
> I think it's fair to say these issues are part of
> "official" Al-Qaida doctrine. There are other things
> that are purportedly from bin Laden that may or may
> not be. But whether they are or not, we should pay
> attention to them, because they are crafted to appeal
> to the grievances of the Arab world. For instance,
> there's a letter circulating that's supposedly from
> bin Laden, available at
> http://www.observer.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html.
> Here are two of the things it mentions:
>
> "You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because
> of your international influence and military threats.
> This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed
> by mankind in the history of the world. "
>
> "Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing
> weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it
> only applies to those countries which you do not
> permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries
> you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed
> to keep and use such weapons to defend their security.
> Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or
> keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them
> criminals and you take military action against them."
>
> Can you say that these are not completely legitimate
> grievances?
>
> Now, mixed in with the legitimate grievances, the
> letter has ravings about "the Jews" and US debauchery,
> plus calls for the US to accept Islam. You can say
> that this means that Al-Qaida will continue to attack
> us until we live under Shariah. What do you want us to
> do, all convert to Islam?
>
> You can say that. In doing so, you would be acting
> exactly as Ariel Sharon, who would tell you: look,
> Hamas and Hezbollah are Islamic fundamentalists, and
> their official doctrine calls for the destruction of
> Israel. What do you want us to do, disband Israel?
>
> Regarding Israel, of course, the alternative is for it
> to accept a genuine Palestinian state and try to live
> in peace with its neighbors. This will massively
> reduce Palestinian support for terrorist attacks.
> There will still be people calling for the destruction
> of Israel, but they won't be able to get many others
> to go blow up buses full of schoolchildren.
>
> Regarding the US, the alternative is for us to force
> Israel to adopt a two state solution, treat Iraq
> fairly, and generally get the hell out of the mideast.
> There will still be people calling for the US to live
> under Shariah, but they won't be able to get others to
> fly planes into buildings.
>
> In both case, Israel and the US should do the right
> thing. Not more than the right thing -- I don't say
> Israel must abolish itself, or all Americans must
> convert to Islam. Just the right thing. And that will
> be enough.
>
> You can say this is politically impossible for the US,
> and maybe it is. It also may be politically impossible
> to get Israel to get out of the occupied territories.
> In fact, I think that might require a civil war in
> Israel, just as there was almost a civil war when
> France got out of Algeria.
>
> NONETHELESS, those are the only solutions for Israel
> and the US. They might not work perfectly. But nothing
> else will work at all. Nothing.
>
> Finally, I should say that, yes, if Al-Qaida sets off
> a nuke and I survive I will keep whistling the same
> tune -- and yes, I will lay a great deal of the blame
> at the feet of the US government.
>
> Look, I live in New York. Someone I know was killed at
> the World Trade Center. Other neighbors were at work
> in the Trade Center when the planes hit. I would be
> thrilled to shoot bin Laden in the head if I got the
> chance. But I am not willing to sign up for George
> Bush's war on terrorism.
>
> I suspect you know the story of Nurit Peled, the
> daughter of Israeli general and peacenik Matti Peled.
> He was often called a self-hating Jew, soft on
> terrorism, etc. Nurit Peled herself is a longtime
> peace activist and proponent of Palestinian rights.
> And I'm sure at some point another Israeli said to
> her, "Maybe after a suicide bomber kills your child
> you'll change your tune?"
>
> Then in 1997 a suicide bomber DID kill her 13 year-old
> daughter in Jerusalem. Her response was not to
> celebrate reprisal attacks, but to say that the
> Israeli government "sacrifices our children for their
> megalomania -- for their need to control, oppress,
> dominate."
>
> So, Peter: I would bet you $1000 that Nurit Peled
> agrees with me rather than you about Al-Qaida. Would
> you take that bet? And if not, why not?
>
> Reed
>
> PS My apologies for the monstrous length of this post.
>
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