"Chip Berlet" <cberlet at igc.org>
Hi,
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Hi
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Chip :If you want to....have a discussion about how terrible and alarming is the wave of government repression, I will probably agree with you completely, even down to the echoes of fascism.
^^^^^ Charles: Yes, the idea is , unlike what happened in Germany, nip it in the bud before it becomes full blown Nazism. Treat it like Nazism before Nazism became genocidal and a crime against peace.
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However if you want to assert there is no difference between 1930's Germany and 2002 in the US, then what's the point?
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Charles: I mean do you really think that I think or said that there are no differences between 1930's Germany and 2002 in the U.S. ? I doubt it. So, why even say it ?
On the other hand , if there is nothing in U.S. 2002 that is similar to Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany, what is the practical applicability of all your work ? Surely , you think _some_ patterns are repeated ( but of course not that there are no differences)
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Surely you can find as many books as I can discussing recent research on fascism, or noting the differences between repressive capitalist "democracy," right-wing military dictatorships, left-wing Stalinist purges, and the Nazi genocide.
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CB: And I am sure that you can think as cogently as I about all the facts and theories pertinent to these issues.
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Which brings us back to the first point: Just becasue it is bad, doesn't make it Nazism.
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CB: How is it that you actually think "bad = Nazism" is not an absurdly ridiculous and distorted oversimplification of what I have said on these issues and this thread ? I mean do you really have to so obviously distort my argument to make your point ? It really is laughable to reduce what I said to "bad =Nazism" Try "Carpetbombing Afghanistan and declaring war all over the world = Nazism". That's a bit closer to what I said.
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The political repression of people perceived to be Arab and/or Muslim is terrible and we all need to oppose it. This opposition is not assisted by claiming we live in a police state or are on the verge of Nazi-style genocide.
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CB: I don't exactly know how you are determining that such measures are not on the verge or at a first step toward Nazi-style genocide. You really should elaborate more specifically how you are making the prediction that we don't have to worry about that. I mean very few people predicted the Nazi genocide before it started. Don't you think it would be better to be overly cautious rather than take your "don't worry" position, given the gravity of the potential harm discussed ?
However, I specifically said that a main point of comparison I was making with the Nazis was the declaration of world conquering warfare.
By the way, you should take note of the fact that the Nuremberg trials made the crimes against peace ( war) a worse crime than crimes against humanity ( genocide). In other words, the Nazi wars on countries were a higher crime than the death camps. So, the Bush war declaration and actions pose the threat of repeating the worst Nazi crimes, in the legal sense of crime.