Bonapartism, Fascism & our new order & War Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:18:48 -0600 From: Micheal Ellis <onyxmirr at earthlink.net>
>CB: I have no problem with "quasi-fascist" from an analytical
>standpoint. It is just that it doesn't have the rhetorical impact of
>"The New Nazism". I don't think "quasi-fascist" has the shock value
>of " The New Nazism". We have to wake the American people up. They
>are going along with things like zombies.
>
i just think 'the new nazism" is too easy to dismiss, applying it to say Israel is more accurate though it's nothing "new". there's just too many things about 'nazism" that just doesn't apply to the U.S. using "nazism" or whatever is too manipulative. we don't want to pervert reason in the process of education. that's not going to help anyone....
^^^^^ Charles: Thanks for response Micheal
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1. no ethno nationalism
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Charles: I don't follow you here. The U.S. is extremely racist and especially in foreign policy. Did they go around bombing white militia types when Timothy McVeigh did his thing ? If you don't see the gross anti-Arab anti-Moslem racism in this whole U.S. thing, look again. I could go on for about 200 pages on the extreme racism of the U.S. wars of the last 50 years. I can't remember them killing a white person.
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2. the amount of victimization percieved or real even after 9/11 is minimal
it has to be rhetorically enhanced, it doesn't have any real resonance like
post wwI germany or post holocaust zionism, antisemitism etc.
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Charles: I'm not sure if I follow you. Victimization of American or Central Asians ? Remember. We are trying to learn from history here. It's as if we were in Germany in 1930 , before the Holocaust and War , and we are trying to prevent it. If we have to have 50 million people die before stopping the U.S. , we have missed our goal.
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3. the working class in the U.S. is too marginalized at this point to be a threat
to the power structure
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CB: I guess you mean in contrast with Germany and Italy in the 20;s and 30's ? And so this is not fascism ? Please explain the upshot of what you are saying for calling the U.S. war Nazism ?
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4. the U.S. worldview ideology is predominant
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CB: Meaning they are further along to the Fourth Reich than the Nazis were to the Fifth Reich. It makes our task more difficult , but more urgent, no ?
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5. it's not a police state.....
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CB: This is a relative term. Doesn't the U.S. have more prisoners than Nazi Germany did ? What do we need Homeland Securty when we already have FBI, CIA ( which has been authorized to act domestically) , state police, city police. Any lawyer will tell that the fourth and fifth amendments are being whittled away. Then of course, ask the Arab detainees if they are in a police state. Remember 41 shots in New York City. The cops were acquitted. Police states can arise from directions different than they did in Europe. Finally, we are acting preventively. We don't want to wait until it is a fullblown "police state". That's when it is too late.
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i sympathize with you about trying to induce more direct action but i don't think adhereing to total subjectivism and manipulation is the way to go....it sounds too familiar
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CB: I'd have to say I have adduced quite a bit of objective argument to support what I am saying. I don't in the least cop to subjectivism or manipulation. There is a real, serious danger in the current situation. It has a history going back to Reaganism, which is 22 years old now. It is growing like cancer.
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"most groups of our people displayed an unbelievable ignorance of foreign affairs.Theoretical crankiness and hyper-patriotism were the characteristics of the German middle class. This type was also found among working class leaders as well as university professors, who had lost all understanding of politics." [Goebbels "knowledge and propaganda" 1928]
"The propagandists must think subjectively. Absolutely subjectively, one-sidedly! He has under all circumstances to avoid the notorious and dangerous German objectivism! He need not weigh right and wrong, he does not need to worry if there might be some slight truth on the enemy's side. Propaganda is concerned only with its goal, with its justice, its truth. All else is half truth. The more consistently, the more uniformly propaganda is applied, the greater will be its success--and the sooner success will come." ["propaganda" Schulze-Wechsungen 1934 germany]
~M.E.
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CB: Excuse me. I know you aren't saying to call the U.S. Nazism is Nazi like. Goebbels is a demogogue. That means he deals in half-truths. The half that is true has to be real true for the demogogy to work. So, there probably was hyper-patriotism and ignorance of foreign affairs in that population.