--- Charles Brown <CharlesB at cncl.ci.detroit.mi.us>
wrote:
>
> CB: Justin , I offer as an alternative a
> Marxist-Leninist alternative which constitutes a
> more democratic society than what you propose. You
> are the one who proposes a police state, i.e. a
> liberal state which has a much longer and worse
> history of being a police state than Marxist states.
> Jefferson presided over a slaveowning , land
> grabbing liberal police state that was lasted for a
> couple of centuries, and owned slaves.
This gets stupider and stupider. There were no contemporary marxist states with Jefferson's America, so any comparison is puerile.
^^^^^^^^
CB: What is your reasoning that a comparison of non-contemporaneous states is puerile ? It seems like a non-sequitur. For one thing, liberal democracy arose in history before socialist democracy did. So, to make a comparison between the two ideologies, one has to take examples from further back in history to get the actual history of liberal democracy. You can't drop off all the horrifying examples of your ideology from the debate by confining discussion to the time period after 1917.
Liberal democracy in the U.S. today is a police state. Did you read about the cops who brutalized Louima getting off ? Remember 41 shots ? Heard of Homeland Security ? Where are the thousands of detainees TODAY ? Remember the Cincinnati riot, LA riot, the Miami riots, the Detroit riots, the Kennedy assassination, the King assassination, the Black Panther assassinations, COINTELPRO ? Hello. The Palmer Raids ? The Gitlow case ? Lynching ? The long history of liberal democracy is , contrary to its own self portrayal, saturated with police state substance. By advocating liberal democracy in the abstract, Justin and you do not escape the actual history of liberal democracies.
^^^^^^^^ If you think internal conditions within the USA of the C20th was worse than the cultural revolution, Stalinist Russia, or the Khmer Rouge then you're insane.
^^^^^^^
CB: If you don't admit that the slave/jim crow system and genocide against the Indians of U.S. liberal democracy was worse than Stalinist Russia then you are a racist dog .
^^^^^^
And given that you laud on this list the role of the police in suppressing counter-revolutionary forces (such as presumably the Worker's Councils in Hungary, Soviets in Moscow, or indeed the various working class revolts against the party during the history of the USSR
^^^^^^^^
CB: You are bizarrely twist what I say to fit whatever distortion your anger drives you to think up, but you argue almost predominantly with your strawmen.
^^^^^
- I'm not sure what point you think you're making. You're the one who's been demanding a police state - to destroy political undesirables.
^^^^^^^
CB: This is another one of your warping, distorting versions of what I have said. You and Justin are slanderers and liars. Your ideology is associated in actual history with much more state repression and annihilation than mine is.