>
> > Justin:...pervasive anti-Semitism among blacks.
> >
> > The poll data
>show that blacks tend to agree to the antisemitic stereotypes (Jews are
>clannish, greedy, pushy, control things, etc.) more than whites or other
>minority groups.
>
>^^^^^
>
>Charles: However, what you summarize here does not support your assertion
>that anti-Semitism is "pervasive" among Black people. "More than" whites
>or other minorities is not equivalent to "pervasive" , which is what I
>said is wrong.
Well, the figures show that about 65% of black and abouy 70% of whites agree to these stereotypes of Jews, depends on which ones. Whites tend to go with "pushy," "aggressive," "control things," blacks with "greedy," "clannish," and the like, though there is a lot of overlap. Blacks think that Jews control the media and the banks, for example. The worst are fundamentalist white Christians, religious Catholics, and old-line rich WASPs.
>
>And as to anecdotal evidence, which I probably have more of and of better
>quality candor than you do, I can say for sure that it is not at all
>pervasive. It is a non-topic compared to criticism of racism. This is a
>case where I am not sanguine about the polling you refer to.
Oh, I am sure that blacks have more important things to talk about than Jews most of the time. As for poll data, it's very tricky, but for the most part it is what we have in the way of empirical evidence. This i the difference, maybe, between Michigan political science and Michigan anthropology . . . . ;>
>
>Also, "Clannish" is not a necessarily a negative attribution. It is a
>compliment.
>
Only if it is taken as such. People say the same sort of thing about the use of Indian mascots, it's supposed to be a "tribute," but the Indians don't take it that way.
^^^^^^^^
>
>CB: Farrakhanism is not very pervasive among Black people. Here you have an
>inaccurate representative of the group. It is extremely rare that I find
>myself talking about Farrakhan with other Black people.
>
I agree. But F expresses in a naked and virulent form attitudes that are
widespread in a lesser degree.
>
>CB: Who didn't say Jews are racist ?
Lost me there. Many Jews _are_ racist, ot at least express racist attitudes (my wife's late aunt used to snarl about the "schwarzes," I'd say, we Schwartzes are just fine, thank you, and my wife would swat me, tell me to leave the old lady alone), but Jews are the least racist group of whites, statistically speaking, even now.
>
>I didn't say Black people say "Jews are racist". I said most criticize
>racism from Jewish people. But they don't summararily characterize them as
>racist.
OK, I'll accept that.
>Judaism is MOST of the Bible. MOST Black people are Christians. Ergo,
>calling Judaism a gutter religion would be throwing out 6/7's of the Bible,
>which the vast majority of Black people are not about to do.
We have to stand corrected ion the gutter religion comment. He said "dirty religion," not "gutter religion." Doug says that June Wannaski has established this.
But the reference to the Bible is irrelevant. Antisemitic fundamentalist Christians who think that Jews killed Christ purport to read and late literally the same Bible. Yes, I know black Christains sing about, "When Israel was in Egypt land," but you know they're not expressing solidarity with Jewish tribulations, it's a metaohor for their own situation.
>
Most people have no notions of any "Zionist entities" etc.
>
I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
>However, the sticking together part is emulation. That Black people should
>do the same thing. So, you may not feel better, but it is not evidence of
>ANTI-Semitism, but PRO-Semitism. In other words, it is seeing Jews AS an
>oppressed and reviled minority in the U.S. LIKE Black people, and instead
>of being envious of success, self-critically saying, "we should do more
>like you".
Like I said about the Indians, uncritically repeating stereotypes, even if well-intended, is unconsciously antisemitic. Or to take another analogy, how would you feel if I said, meaning well, you black people sure got rhythm and can sing and dance! And I really admire all the great ball players you produce! I don't get paranoid about this, but some Jews are hypersensitive. Best to avoid the stereotypes altogether.
>>
>CB: I contradict anti-Semitism when it occurs.
Good, and I do the same with Jewish racism. Had a big blow up with my mother in law about this a while back, she still hasn't forgiven me. She's probably pretty typical, expresses racist attitudes, votes yellow-dog Democrat, worked all her life in the NYC school system to do good things for black constituents. A bundle of contradictions.
jks
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