The former president of the USSR, Mikhail Gorbachev, has praised Russian President Vladimir Putin for gearing his policies to the widest possible spectrum of people and "breaking away from the influence of families, groups, clans". If Putin continued this line, it would accord with the position of his own Social Democratic Party, Gorbachev said. He described Putin's policy, since 11 September, of cooperation with the West as a "conceptual" choice. The following is an excerpt from the interview broadcast by Russian Ekho Moskvy radio on 2 May:
[Presenter Aleksey Venediktov, live in studio] This is Aleksey Venediktov at
the microphone. Our guest today is the [former] president of the USSR, Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev. Good day, Mikhail Sergeyevich.
[Gorbachev] Good day...
[Venediktov] Mikhail Sergeyevich, have you met Le Pen?
[Gorbachev] No. Incidentally -
[Venediktov] Why not? He's a politician who has been around a long time now.
[Gorbachev] Well, who haven't I - there are many politicians I have not met.
There are also very many I have met.
[Venediktov] But you said -
[Gorbachev] I would like to finish our conversation by making the following point.
[Venediktov] I don't want to finish it yet.
[Gorbachev] No, no, no. I mean this point. I want to make it before I forget
it. All countries need to have legislation which would give law-enforcement agencies and society as a whole the possibility, give them a guarantee against these extremist forces. So, what the president said about this, that
we need clear and succinct legislation, is, I think, a very important step on his part.
[Venediktov] But as you so rightly said, Mikhail Sergeyevich, it is not a question of Le Pen or 200-300 functionaries who make a career out of this. Millions of absolutely ordinary people, middle-class people, workers, members of the intelligentsia voted for Le Pen's views - out of desperation, despair
- or, on the other hand, because they shared his views. You cannot ban them.
This is already an ideology, as you yourself know. What do you do about this
and how? Maybe this is the danger?
[Gorbachev] No, I think that if we are saying that - democratic parties tend
to compete among themselves in putting forward plans and projects. This happens at every stage, at times of recession and in times of recovery. These are all different plans, different approaches, different policies. The plans
that are competing here are those of democratic parties. People choose between them. But when people do not see these plans, they start to notice the kind of plans and slogans, they start to react to what Le Pen and people
like him are saying. In such circumstances - admittedly, some still do not vote for Le Pen. They simply didn't turn out to vote. But, in doing so, they
opened the way for - if they had turned out and voted, I am sure that would have voted either for Chirac or for Jospin. But it is their withdrawal from politics, or, to be more precise, from the processes of the election campaign that leads to these results.
Incidentally, in our country, the CPRF [Communist Party of the Russian Federation], gains from this.
[Venediktov] From what?
[Gorbachev] From the fact that the elderly turn out to vote. They feel nostalgia for the Soviet era. There were full guarantees for pensioners and the elderly then, albeit at a low level. There was some stability. But these
people are living out their final years and now they are being driven into such a situation.
[Venediktov] Are plans being drawn up to compete with the CPRF, if your logic is correct?
[Gorbachev] I think that they are bound to emerge. At all events, we, the Social Democrats, reckon we should put forward such a plan, a plan which would meet the interests of the majority in Russia. As it happens, this is the main reason why we are on the president's side. We consider he is steadily unfolding policies geared to the majority in Russia and breaking away from the influence of families, groups, clans and so on - although, I have to say, this process is not complete and, through inertia, we are still
losing a lot. So, having taken various decisions over the past two years, he
should now make a final choice. It is difficult to be all things to all men.
[Venediktov] Mikhail Sergeyevich, do you think Vladimir Vladimirovich [Putin] has social democratic views?
[Gorbachev] If he continues his line in the interests of the majority, this will coincide with the position of the Social Democrats.
[Venediktov] No, I -
[Gorbachev] I don't know how he views himself -
[Venediktov] But you have met him, talked to him. What do you see him as?
[Gorbachev] That's what I'm saying. What he is doing - not simply what he is
saying - but what he is doing, developing policies in the interests of the majority, indicates that his position coincides with our position, that of the Social Democrats...
[Venediktov] Since we have suddenly got round to Russia, let's continue this
discussion. There is this idea, if I am not mistaken, that there are now three or four paths along which Russia could develop. There is the liberal view, the market path, entirely integrated with neo-liberalism, as you call it. There is the social democratic, European view - huge social promises defined -
[Gorbachev] Incidentally, during election campaigns, if you read the programmes - and we have analysed this - all of them are social democrats.
[Venediktov] All of them are social democrats, are they?
[Gorbachev] Yes. But once they win seats, they start to push their own line.
But we want to continue this.
[Venediktov] But let me return to Vladimir Ivanovich [as heard, presumably Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin is meant]. I would like to finish this point. Do you feel that his views on the development of the country mean that he should join the Socialist International rather than the Communist International.
[Gorbachev] I think he is conducting the right policy at the moment, representing all shades of opinion, all interests that there are in Russia.
[Venediktov] But it is impossible to represent the nationalists, the communists and the liberals.
[Gorbachev] Ultimately -
[Venediktov] That would make him the father of the people.
[Gorbachev] Let me add one more thing. Ultimately, they should realize that,
even if he does not represent them directly, even if he espouses, as it were, the position of other political parties and movements, nevertheless, if it is in Russia's interests, it is ultimately in the interests of all of us. It is
in everybody's interests for Russia to be a prosperous and peaceful country.
[Venediktov] Mikhail Sergeyevich, it transpires that he has no views, that the majority -
[Gorbachev] I think he is making a choice. He does have views. He is making a choice. I think the things he said in his last address will become clearer in the next stage. If he shows he has the political will to tackle these questions - after all, he mentioned everything. Poverty - which is unacceptable to us, and several other things which I won't list. The important thing now is to see how the president organizes the work of the government. After all he forms the government. I don't think he will cope with the tasks stemming from his address if he keeps the same composition [of the government]. I don't think he will tackle this by firing the government and forming a new one straightaway. No, I don't think so. I think a great deal can be achieved through administrative reform.
So, I would put it this way. The personnel problem is most relevant to the implementation of what he was saying. Personnel are already available. There
cannot -
[Venediktov] The choice is rather narrow.
[Gorbachev] No, no, no. The personnel are already available. There are some very substantial people amongst the governors. There are others to be found amongst our stratum of entrepreneurs. And there are others in the present, in the existing -
[Venediktov] Will this be a personnel revolution in Russia?
[Gorbachev] I don't think this will be a personnel revolution. This is more likely to be administrative reform. In general, this process of renewing personnel should be a vigorous one.
[Venediktov] I know why he appeals to you. Of late, he has been increasingly
compared to Gorbachev.
[Gorbachev] No, he gets criticized for this comparison. They make this comparison and criticize him for it.
[Venediktov] That's exactly why I wanted to discuss our last subject with you, Mikhail Sergeyevich.
[Gorbachev] He probably does not want to be Gorbachev and cannot be Gorbachev. This is all a figment of journalists' minds...
[Venediktov] Mikhail Sergeyevich, there really is a superficial similarity, at the very least. This applies, first and foremost, to the sharp change of course in foreign policy. You, in your day, brought about an external about-turn in the foreign policy of the Soviet Union.
[Gorbachev] Not an external about-turn, but an about-turn in external policy.
[Venediktov] An about-turn in the Soviet Union's foreign policy - yes of course, excuse me. It was a slip of the tongue on my part. After 11 September Vladimir Putin brought about a fairly abrupt switch towards cooperation with
the West, one that is quite clear to the naked eye.
[Gorbachev] That is precisely the choice he has made.
[Venediktov] That is the choice he has made.
[Gorbachev] He was moving in that direction. There were individual steps. Then he made a choice, which was already a conceptual one.
[Venediktov] Mikhail Sergeyevich, you also shook things up a bit. Now he is shaking things up...