>I guess it partly depends on what questions one asks. My question from
>the beginning has been "What are the principles around which we can
>mobilize the largest number of people in opposition to the current
>episode in the50-year U.S ware on the peoples of the Middle East?"
>
>Now the debate as it has exploded again in the last week or so on this
>list seems to be "Who must we exclude from participation in this
>effort?"
Now, that you think this motivates participants is clearly fantasy. it may be what you want out of the convo, but not me and it's not my understanding of what any of the participants want. i am pretty sure that most people who talk about making the left stronger are not talking about organizing a mass movement. I'd like to hear from others on that point.
Please, everyone in this debate who supports the mobilization of a mass movement say aye:
> That is, some of the participants are, essentially, taking the
>position stated a few weeks ago on pen-l:
>
>"We have to show no such things. Revolutions are made by people whose
>backs are against the wall. This amounts to 80 percent of the planet.
>The main reason they do not break out everywhere is the absence of
>leadership. The crisis of the 21st century, just as was the case in the
>20th century, can be reduced to a crisis of leadership. In the workers
>camp, this involves creating clear lines of demarcation between those
>who are fighting for socialism and those who in the name of socialism
>promote class collaboration."
i don't understand the difference between the two in your last sentence
>(and though I believe that trying to wrap oneself in the flag will always
>prove
>counter-productive),
remember: wrapping oneself with former soldiers is no different than wrapping oneself in the flag.
>I believe Chuck's principle of exclusion is
>unacceptable. There is no way to build an anti-war drive without uniting
>with many many thousands for whom the flag will remain a positive
>principle. <...>
and, actually, chuck throttled back on that one, not to mention that the anarchist pics he shared revealed a bunch of anarchists wrapping themselves in flags and depictions of the flag!