Question: Perestroika is history. These days we have "situation handling" instead of "juridical territory", talk-shows instead of glasnost, and fortification of the state as a private business instead of individual liberties...
Mikhail Gorbachev: I think I find a lot of what has been happening understandable and explicable.
I do not have any reason to doubt President Putin's overall concept and actions. This is crisis management, after all, a way out of the chaos that he inherited. Essentially, we survived the threat of the disintegration of Russia. Or the threat of regional pluralism, at least. And of course, we negotiated the tyranny of bureaucracy - when certain clans all but had it in writing that they were funding the elections in the expectation of getting compensation in the form of chunks of state property. Nothing at all can be achieved without first restoring the people's faith that the government is thinking of the nation and its problems, rather than servicing the clans.
The regime has to be authoritarian every now and then. It must act promptly, without lengthy explanations. That is why its actions are sometimes difficult to understand.
Question: Reforms traded for liberty, liberty traded for property. Narrowing down the territory of democracy - "for the sake of the people and democracy".
Mikhail Gorbachev: I repeat - calling the president and his actions undemocratic is groundless. I was in his place, you know, and I tell you that what Vladimir Putin has succeeded in doing is in the interests of the majority.
Question: Could you cite any examples for this statement?
Mikhail Gorbachev: Take the sphere of education, for example. The president wants it adapted to modern demands; but education should be free and easily accessible at the same time. Or take the situation with housing and utilities reforms, when the president intervened. He doesn't want the reforms to take place at the expense of the citizenry.
Question: But gasoline prices are skyrocketing, cars with right- hand steering are banned, and Russian auto-makers are once again more important than Russian consumers. Imports of used foreign-made cars are forbidden now... Was all this done to promote the interests of the majority too?
Mikhail Gorbachev: Yes, there are some things here I would not have done. On the other hand, the president cannot afford to abandon the domestic market altogether. Even the most advanced nations cannot afford to do that. The European Union has initiated over 60 antidumping processes against Russia. Is that "a new chapter in our relations"?
Question: In my view, there is some disparity between what you are saying and what you did as president of the Soviet Union. As president, you launched the political reforms - meaning that economic liberty was impossible without political liberty and free individuals. Now you are all but approving some processes aimed at narrowing down the political field. Alternatives and choices are not longer fashionable. The Federation Council is all but non-existent. The Duma is tame and obedient - it is a puppet.
I'd like to repeat the question. Is encroachment on political liberties the price of successful reforms? Can we put it this way?
Mikhail Gorbachev: You've put it this way, haven't you? And that means that freedom of speech still exists...
Question: Yes, but I did so in a conversation with you...
Mikhail Gorbachev: Well, the situation in Russia is so complicated and controversial that decisions cannot help being controversial as well.
I perceive some guarantees in the president's own position, first and foremost. My conversations and contacts with President Putin have convinced me that he stands for democratic methods of government, and is not planning to introduce any kind of authoritarian regime.
I see tension over certain issues being escalated artificially every now and then. In any case, I do sincerely support the president and wish him luck. In my view, the people also perceive that Putin is determined to get Russia out of the swamp in which it has found itself. However, there are some substantial forces seeking to preserve the status quo. The status quo is what has taken shape over the last decade. One journalist asked: why would the president work with the people who seized substantial chunks of state property in the 1990s? These people hardly care for Putin's ambitious plans... In my view, this is a war between those who have everything, and who fear that the reforms will affect their profits - and between the majority, struggling to survive.
It follows that the whole status quo theory - when only a handful of people call the tune - is lethal for Russia. Some people have secured footholds in the new system. Using these footholds as their base, they advance and take over whatever they want to take over. Generally speaking, all this has little if anything to do with a free market economy, an economy that is socially oriented and considerate. These people don't give a damn about how others live. They keep their capital in offshore zones. This is one policy. The president's policy is different.
The president is saying more and more often that we need a policy of innovation, a policy which will support energetic people. A great many necessary laws have been passed over the last two-and-a-half years, laws improving the situation greatly. And you say that nothing of importance has taken place.
Question: Yes, I really think so - because all the courts are bought by oligarchic structures to promote the decisions they need. Authoritarianism is when you cannot find justice in court. Or when everything depends on whether or not you were granted an audience with somebody. Isn't it what has been happening?
Mikhail Gorbachev: This is a trend the president wants to overcome. In my view, the president is only just approaching the issue of combating corruption. Or take the delays with the anti-corruption legislation in the Duma - what do they tell us?
Question: In what Duma will it be difficult to pass this legislation - in the Duma as it is at present?
Mikhail Gorbachev: You mean the anti-corruption law? Yes.
Question: A simple phone call there, and the law will be passed in all necessary readings in no time at all.
Mikhail Gorbachev: It's not that simple. The bill has been in the Duma for a long time already, you know.
I'm not here to extoll the president's policy. But I know the president, and know his stand on the matter. He is not a man to succumb to flattery.
Question: State officials must be unaware of that. They go out of their way to demonstrate their undying loyalty...
Mikhail Gorbachev: All this merely indicates how serious the personnel problem is. The president once called it the most important problem. The nation has reached a point where the strategy of survival should give way to a strategy of development. Decisions on many issues are needed. Development of small and medium-sized business is essential, we cannot do without it. We need an industrial policy. We need large corporations, without which innovation programs are impossible.
I'm not among those who detest big business. There are different kinds of corporations. Some of them are aware of their social responsibilities, others merely pillage the country.
Question: Do you think the president understands that?
Mikhail Gorbachev: He does. He wants the use of natural resources taxed. What belongs to the people should be used in a different manner from how it has been used until now.
Question: In my view, the president is considering additional taxation of raw materials industries.
Mikhail Gorbachev: A document is being prepared, on his orders.
Question: A new tax was imposed on gasoline stations recently, and they are mostly owned by large oil companies. Gas prices went up... What does that mean - does the president lack leverage to use against these monopolists? Do these monopolists have so much influence in the presidential administration?
Mikhail Gorbachev: Laws are needed, rather than dictatorial methods on the president's part.
The president ordered tax legislation corrected and amended. Companies dealing in natural resource complain that oil and gas companies will not be able to invest in their sectors of economy. That's nonsense. These are their enterprises, their assets, so let them invest in their development.
The matter of consolidating natural resources taxes in the budget is ripe for action. An answer has to be found. From the budget, funding should go into education, health care, pensions, benefits, and even industrial policy. This is how things are done in many countries. But in Russia, for some reason, this is viewed almost as a danger to business.
Read the United Nations report which states plainly that the role of governments in the advanced nations, including the United States, has increased in the last decade. First and foremost, it has increased in matters pertaining to innovation, research and development, education, and so on... This is what Putin has been promoting.
We should support the president, if we know what is good for us. Support him. I hope the president and all of us have sufficient political will.
The people understand their president. This is Putin's major asset, which will overcome any resistance.
Question: Do you mean that the president will work for the people's approval and support, rather than for the oligarchs, as it has always been the case?
Mikhail Gorbachev: Yes, and that is why his campaign may be the cheapest.
Question: Does this mean you know the president is resolved to shed his dependence on oil and financial corporations, and on their lobbyists in the Cabinet and in his own staff?
Mikhail Gorbachev: I can tell you that the president is not as dependent on anyone as you seem to imply.
It is time we understood that our wealthy compatriots do not have a future anywhere other than Russia. Let them pay their taxes in full and on time, and gradually return their capital to Russia. They will benefit, and Russia will benefit. In other words, various strata of society should do whatever they can to meet the president halfway.
I read an article by Aleksei Mordashov recently. He linked the future of Russian industry with an investment policy encouraging and supporting innovation. This is a reasonable and logical position. As for those who intend to go on buying votes and using their capital to keep Duma members and state officials under control, I think they are making a grave mistake. Deception is not going to last much longer. I'm convinced that the future election campaigns will differ substantially from those we have seen until now.
The election in Nizhny Novgorod - and not only there - confirms it.
The people will not be deceived much longer. When political parties mature, they will already know whom they have to deal with.
Question: President Putin is known as a tolerant man who listens to all opinions and is prepared to discuss any issue. Any issue but Chechnya.
In December, it will be eight years since war broke out in Chechnya. How much longer do you think the president is going to avoid the issue? Is he afraid that it may cost him the support of the military?
Mikhail Gorbachev: I think that would be too simplistic an answer to a complicated question. Remember how all this began? Dudayev kept in touch with the president of Russia, he wrote letters to Moscow. And something happened.
It was a mistake to think that the army would solve the problem of Chechnya within a single week.
There are certain forces in Russia that want the war to continue. Moreover, I have gradually become convinced that this desire to see the war continue exists abroad as well.
All these considerations make it absolutely plain that a solution to this problem should be found as soon as possible.
I think the president understands that. I think he is leaning toward a political solution. A great deal has been done along these lines. Life in Chechnya is gradually getting back to normal, despite the refugees, despite destruction. The process of revival in Chechnya has begun. It is underway. More importantly, Chechens themselves are running the republic.
On the other hand, Aslan Maskhadov and the "field commanders" are not a part of the process. I have given the matter much thought, you know...
Maskhadov wants the war to continue, to become even fiercer, in order not to give Moscow the time or the opportunity to establish peaceful relations. Some field commanders have gone so far that the war remains their only option. Has any field commander responded to the proposal to put an end to the bloodshed? And the Russian authorities promised that guerrillas would not be prosecuted.
There is only one realistic solution to the problem. Chechnya is an integral part of Russia. The matter of its status may be negotiated at a later date. It may differ in some details from the status of other Russian regions.
Question: Why all this tension around Georgia?
Mikhail Gorbachev: In my view, the president's resolution is not groundless. There have been reasons to raise the matter. At the same time, the president reiterates that we support the territorial integrity of Georgia and that Moscow doesn't want economic relations with Georgia revised. That is important. This is the most important thing. War is not an option.
If you ask me, the president of Georgia - though he is undoubtedly a wise and skilled administrator - has made a strategic mistake. He began acting in a manner that indicated Russia was not all that important for Georgia anymore.
Georgia has made its choice, but Russia is close by - and we both need neighborly relations.
I do not think there will be a war between Russia and Georgia. I'm convinced of it. In my view, Putin and Shevardnadze should untangle the knot.
War is not an option. That's axiomatic, something like the presumption of innocence. No wars between Russia and Georgia. All problems should be negotiated peacefully. (Translated by A. Ignatkin)
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