PROF. STEPHEN F. COHEN, Princeton University: The issue here is not whether we should pursue a foreign policy that guards against the Soviet Union. That's not the issue, because obviously in significant ways the Soviet Union represents a threat to our interests around the world and to our values. The problem is the excessive American perception of that threat, the pathological ways we construe that threat, and what it leads us to do. Because in addition to distorting our domestic priorities, to undermining our democratic civil liberties at home, in the end, arguably, it actually does damage to our national security.
There is, I reminded Professor Firmage, a doctrine called "the reason of state," which holds that whatever is necessary to defend the state's survival must be done by the individuals responsible for it. "Doesn't that," I asked, take precedence over this 18th-century set of values?"
PROFESSOR FIRMAGE: (http://www.law.utah.edu/faculty/bios/firmagee.html) I think the survival of the state is what the Constitution is about. The reason of state argument is a very slippery thing, and at heart, at best amoral.
MOYERS: Amoral?
PROFESSOR FIRMAGE: Oh, you bet. I would say it ranges from amoral on the good side, to just basically immoral.
MOYERS: Assume I'm president, and I'm going to say, Professor Firmage, that's all wonderful, but I deal in an ugly world. The United States is a wonderful place, relatively, because of this document, because of the values the founders inculcated in us, but the world beyond these borders is a pretty ugly world. People don't like us, people don't share those values, people are out to get us. And if I don't do the ugly things that are necessary to protect us from an ugly world, you won't be able to exercise the right of free speech out at that university."
PROFESSOR FIRMAGE: I would say poppycock, Mr. President. That is simply nonsense. The whole fight is over means, not ends. Every president with every good intention, and every tyrant, with whatever his intention, has used precisely the same argument. That is, don't constrain me by means, and I will get you there safely and well. And I think any time we accept a reason of state argument to justify means that are totally incongruent with the values of our state, we're on the high road to tyranny and we deserve to be there. Our nation was born in rebellion against tyranny. We are the fortunate heirs of those who fought for America's freedom and then drew up a remarkable charter to protect it against arbitrary power. The Constitution begins with the words, "We the people." The government gathers its authority from the people, and the governors are as obligated to uphold the law as the governed. That was revolutionary. Listen now to the voices of some people who believe the fight for freedom isn't over.
_________________________________ Steven Hertzberg