Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:32:27 -0400 From: Dennis Perrin <dperrin at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Lefty Despair and Re: More Michael Parenti Re: Deserving Americans
Dennis, you really can do something to raise the level of debate. It doesn't have to be like this. (See more below) Tahir
I've known, and still know, a fair number of Marxists, and I've even liked a few. I've never been a Marxist, and thought early on that those who specifically identified with a 19th century political thinker and critic lacked a measure of original thought and identity, and were, to a degree, no different than the religious folk they oftentimes ridicule.
Tahir: Dennis, don't you think it's about time you explained to us where you stand? You've been slagging off marxism for days and days quite tirelessly - surely this means that you think you have developed a better perspective . Why not spread a bit of that joy around? Or do you feel more comfortable taking pot shots while keeping under cover yourself? Let's face it this list could do with a bit more content at the moment. Why not give use some ideas to chew over?
Marxism simply isn't gonna take hold in this country -- not with its republican tradition -- and this mad belief in Marxism's ineivtable triumph is, again, similar to the belief in the Second Coming. And Maoism? Right. Wake me for that one.
Tahir: So what is going to happen in the future then? If you know this then share it. I'm a marxist and I don't have any of the mad beliefs that you allude to here. Unlike you I have no specific idea about what is going to happen in the future. What is more important to me is what Marx actually gave us, an immanent critique of capitalism and a notion of communism as the real movement of the people. People struggle against capital on a daily basis and this pushes capital into renewed crises and forces it to restrategise all the time. I take hope from this resilience of the human spirit and I find something quite heroic in the struggle to prevent capital from its attempt to posit itself as the whole of society. That to me is the spirit of communism, not some crystal ball crap. It gives us a better idea of human potential, of which recorded history can only be an incomplete realisation. What's your perspective? Why not articulate it rather than continually demanding that marxis! ts!
have to explain themselves to you?
As I've said before (and I'm happy to see Carrol concur), the left, whatever it is, has had a tremendous influence on mainstream society; and it's strength has derived from the ability of those who take social change seriously to change themselves when necessary, to adapt to and flow with historical currents. Unfortunately many lefties remain stuck in positions that have little relevance to the world around them, and they cling to these positions because that's all they know, or worse, arrogantly believe are superior to the common person's outlook on life. We've all seen this latter tendency all too often on this list, and what's "progressive" about it I've no idea.
Tahir: Yeah I think we've all got that one by now. Can we move on?