<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <TITLE>Message</TITLE> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2>Wojtek<SPAN class=041031716-16102002>,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002>The "ends" that the "<FONT face=Arial>Democratic Left" discussion group is trying to achieve, namely, avoiding "flame-wars" and promoting an environment for "productive and friendly... dialogue,"  are acceptable to me<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 120%; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">.  I, too, avoid the unmoderated Yahoo discussion groups that you (<FONT face=Tahoma>Wojtek) </FONT>speak of for the same reasons that you mention in your post.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 120%; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 120%; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 120%; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 120%; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT face=Arial>However, isn't it the "means" that the <FONT face=Tahoma>"</FONT><FONT face=Arial>Democratic Left" discussion group </FONT>attempts to employ the problem?  Mr. Casey has requested that he be given the ability to "</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002>screen all individuals who indicate a desire to join."  First, I do not see how this "screening" process is any guarantee that the <FONT face=Tahoma>"</FONT><FONT face=Arial>Democratic Left" discussion group will be able to avoid the kind of disrespectful postings that you quote in your email, </FONT><FONT face=Tahoma>Wojtek.  Second, wasn't </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=163230815-16102002>the US Constitution all about "means?"  But this second point is an entirely separate other conversation that I won't go into now, yet, I'm sure you know where I'm going here.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=163230815-16102002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=163230815-16102002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=163230815-16102002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=163230815-16102002>In any event, I wrote back to Mr Casey suggesting he can achieve the same ends (to "avoid .... flame-wars") by implementing different means, by implementing software that will facilitate a Moderator and selecting a strong Moderator who will mediate such "flaming" activity.  Yet, even this solution could be attacked by censorship defenders for its hypocracy.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=163230815-16102002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=163230815-16102002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=163230815-16102002>I think Chomsky said it best, "either you believe in Free Speech or you don't, there is no middle ground." (paraphrased)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=163230815-16102002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=163230815-16102002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000000 size=2><SPAN class=163230815-16102002>Steven</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=041031716-16102002><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000000 size=2><SPAN class=163230815-16102002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV></SPAN></FONT></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> owner-lbo-talk@lists.panix.com [mailto:owner-lbo-talk@lists.panix.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Wojtek Sokolowski<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:19 AM<BR><B>To:</B> lbo-talk@lists.panix.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Democratic Left_ list (UFT)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002><FONT color=#0000ff>I think it is a very sensible request.  Unfortunately, many people (especially US males) use the anonymity of internet to dumpt the pathetic contents of their pea-brains.  The messages on Yahoo boards connected to their news service is a case in point.  Sometimes I browse it to see what's on th eminds of American people with college education (I think these the people who have the capacity to participate in thes exchanges) - and that is a scary world indeed.   Here as some recent quotations:</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002>Becasue they are willing to die for something, as opposed to you pathetic liberals. (sent by daisycutterblu82, age 32, Denver, CO)</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002>No, I just hate liberals enough to line you all up and take a M60 to your asses. (sent by geobronc/ male no age or location)</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002>So Hillary is a chickenhawk? Yak yak yak another dirty hippy blowing hot air and throwing around ad-hominem attacks. You silly lefties are so predictable. Let me guess do you support Arafat and the oppressed peoples of Palistine? I can't own a gun, but you support Saddam owning a nice pile of nuclear warheads.  (another gem sent by the prolific daisycutterblu82 of Denver, CO).</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002>wawawawawawawa  (sent by just_crapped_on_a_liberal, real name: George, age 44, male, Austin TX)</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002><FONT color=#0000ff>and so on and so forth - the cream of the US intelligence at work.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002><FONT color=#0000ff>wojtek</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=834300116-16102002><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> owner-lbo-talk@lists.panix.com [mailto:owner-lbo-talk@lists.panix.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Steven Hertzberg<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:15 AM<BR><B>To:</B> lbo-talk@lists.panix.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> FW: Democratic Left_ list (UFT)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=304061215-16102002>When I tried to sign up for the "Democratic Left" email discussion group, I received the following message.  I guess to enter their discussion forum, you have to pass Leo Casey's concept of "Democratic Left."  I think I'll pass on this one.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=304061215-16102002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=304061215-16102002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=304061215-16102002>Steven</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=304061215-16102002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> LeoCasey@aol.com [mailto:LeoCasey@aol.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:44 AM<BR><B>To:</B> mailinglist@navari.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> (no subject)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>In order to ensure productive and friendly dialogue and debate on the _Democratic Left_ list, and to avoid the acrimony and flame-wars which appear on some Internet lists, we screen all individuals who indicate a desire to join our list. If you tell us who you are, and why you would like to participate, we will act on your request.<BR> <P align=center><BR>Leo Casey<BR>United Federation of Teachers<BR>260 Park Avenue South<BR>New York, New York 10010-7272 (212-598-6869)<BR><BR>Power concedes nothing without a demand.<BR>It never has, and it never will.<BR>If there is no struggle, there is no progress.<BR>Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation are men who want crops without plowing the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters.<BR>-- Frederick Douglass --<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>