. Pleading doesn't allow the copos to >lock up anyone. They still have have to persaude a magistrate to issue >a warrant or find probable cause, then a grand jury to indict, then a judge >to take the plea. I was thinking of rather more chickenshit charges, but sure, there are a lot of people involved, some judges are watchful and fair. But on the whole I don't know that most judges spend a whole lot of time worrying if the accused really broke into the car or really had the crack when the prosecution and defense present some deal they've worked out. jks. Can't speak to state court. In federal court, the judges mainly do care. >I can't speak from personal experience to the first two >(though the saying about grand juries is that they'll indicta ham sandwich), >but I know my own district judge took the plea process very seriously, >and she would not accept a plea if she did not think the guy was guilty. Which kind of shows that it's a problem, actually jks. Nah, it onl;y came up twice in three years while I was there, out of scores of guilty pleas. . But who outside the system would know that it's a problem? The stereotype is rather the opposite. jks. I don't understand this. I guess you're in Chicago so you'd know this better, but as I recall Illinois governor George Ryan stopped signing execution orders because about half of the prisoners on death row there (13 out of 25 I think) were exonerated. That's not a particularly good percentage. I understand that the prosecutors are under more political pressure in these cases, but I would think that, on average, there would also be better defense in capital cases. jks. There 13 exonerations and 25 executions. We have several hundred on death row. It's still al lousy percentage. I think there is more political pressure in death cases. However, I have personally handled the habeas petitions of over a dozen (literally) randomly selected murderers, and all of them were guilty not only beyonga  reasonbale doubt, but beyond a shadow of a doubt. My current client is only guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, despite my clever arguments to the contrary. Wanna stop the war on drugs? Everyone facing time >on a drug charge refuse to plead guilty and demand a jury trial. >[Screeeeeech.] > >jks. Yes, but it would be a bad choice for most clients Sure, just as individually going on strike is generally a bad move, though people do it all the time, i.e. walk off the job to protest injustice. jks. You need collective action, anyway, the point is idle. Still, I do think people plead out more often and earlier than they should because of bullying by their lawyers. Here I'm not talking about murders but the run of the mill economic/drug crimes for which the vast majority of people enter the system. You really have no-one on your side if your lawyer is telling you to take a deal. It's terrifying to not understand the process and have your advocate telling you you're fucked unless you plead guilty jks. But you probably are fucked if you don't take the deal. PDs are desperately overloaded, though, and don't have time to give cases proper consideration. The state PDs in Cook County don't even have computers. Legal research? What legal research? The caliber of private criminal representation is very low unless you can afford a big firm lawyer, for the most part, or you are lucky enoughg to get one appointed as counsel. I've seen a handful of excellent solo and small firm crimal defense lawyers -- I remember one who got a sentence my judge imposed overturned by the 7th Cir., which is NOT easy to do, and he came back for resentensing, wanted to fire his loawyer, said he provided ineffective assistance. The judge said, He did NOT. But was fired anyway, that's the client's prerogative. That's the exception. It's a terrible system, and it's allowed to continue partly because people outside it have no clue what's really going on. jks. It's a terrible system, but I think it's allowed to continue because most people thing that the objectys of the criminal justice system are garbage. Of course it'd be much worse if it weren't for the NLG--so while we're enjoying our arguments with Justin and Nathan, we should all be writing the Guild a check. jks. Please do. You can get the address at our website: <A href="http://www.nlg.org">www.nlg.org</A> jks <hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!? <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com">Yahoo! Mail Plus</a> - Powerful. Affordable. <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com">Sign up now</a>