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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: "Knee-Jerk Anti-Imperialism" Re: Two Takes
> (Shane Mage)
> 2. Israel eyes Iraqi pipeline project
> (uvj at vsnl.com)
> 3. Limonov in jail (Chris Doss)
> 4. Sakharov monument in Moscow (Chris Doss)
> 5. Re: Sakharov monument in Moscow (andie
> nachgeborenen)
> 6. Local labor victory 2 years in the making
> (Brian O. Sheppard)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:04:47 -0400
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> From: Shane Mage <shmage at pipeline.com>
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] "Knee-Jerk Anti-Imperialism"
> Re: Two Takes
> Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>
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>
> Which is further removed from reality
> -the assertion that there was some Trotskyist
> somewhere who supported the US in its war against
> Japan
> or
> -the assertion that there was, or is, something
> "democratic"
> about US imperialism
> ?
>
> >Who is it who can't read? I wrote "you're wrong
> that "Pearl Harbor"
> >made WW II in the Pacific anything but an
> imperialist
> >slaughter on both sides. " in reply to your claim
> that the imperialist
> >war was "justified by just war theory"
> >
> >* * *
> >A point I carefully described as independent of
> internationalism.
> >* * *
> >
> >and that you regarded
> >US victory as "preferable."
> >* * *
> > That from an internationalist point of view, yes.
> I said (I repeat
> >for the nth time) that liberal democratic
> imperialism was preferable
> >to Japanese quasi fascism.
> >
> >****
> > My point was that a deliberately
> >provoked attack is no sort of justification and
> that the two
> >imperialist rivals were *equally* engaged in
> slaughter.
> >* * *
> >From the point of view of just war theory,
> provocation mitogates but
> >does not excuse. A reasonable nation is supposed to
> be able to
> >remain grownup in the face of provocation.
> >
> > I also reject your Gore Vidal derived fantasy
> story about the Day
> >of Infamy being a setup; I love Vidal, but he's not
> a hiistorian.
> >Charles Beard, whose work on this I do not know, is
> apparantly out
> >of his deoth; he's also not a military/dipolomatic
> historian. The
> >consenus of the experts is against you. The idea
> that Japan did no
> >real damage at PH is absurd.
> >* *
> >
> >to
> >your claim that "virtually all" socialists
> supported the
> >imperialist slaughter in the Pacific, I can assure
> you that
> >*no* socialist in the tradition of the Third
> International
> >(I exclude Stalinists, of course) supported the war
> against
> >Japan whether or not they supported defense of the
> >Stalinized "Soviet Union" against Hitler.
> >* * *
> >
> >So who the hell are you talkinga bout? Not
> Stalinists and not
> >Trotskyists -- wasn't that virtually all socialists
> at the time?
> >There weren't any (western) Maoists, and if there
> has been any they
> >surea s hell would have supposed a war against
> Japan (any help you
> >can get!).
> >****
> >
> >I might add that many bourgeois Asian nationalists,
> from the
> >great Subhas Chandra Bose, to the Burmese Thakins,
> to
> >the great Aguinaldo, to many Indonesians, and even
> to
> >such a significant Chinese nationalist as Wang
> Chin-wei,
> >supported Japanese imperialism against its
> Anglo-French-
> >Netherlandic-American imperialist rivals.
> >* * *
> > Yah, the Japanese got a certain amount of milage
> out of that "We
> >are Asiatics" line. But I said the Reds didn't buy
> it.
> >
> >jks
> >
> >
> >
> >Do you Yahoo!?
>
><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailsig/*http://tax.yahoo.com>Yahoo!
>
> >Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and
> more
>
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>
> <!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
> <html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
> blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ;
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> --></style><title>Re: [lbo-talk] "Knee-Jerk
> Anti-Imperialism"
> Re: Two Ta</title></head><body>
> <div>Which is further removed from reality</div>
> <div>-the assertion that there was some
> Trotskyist</div>
> <div> somewhere who supported the US in its
> war against
> Japan</div>
> <div>or</div>
> <div>-the assertion that there was, or is, something
> "democratic"</div>
> <div> about US imperialism</div>
> <div>?</div>
> <div><br></div>
> <blockquote type="cite" cite>
> <blockquote>Who is it who can't read? I wrote
> "you're wrong that
> "Pearl Harbor"</blockquote>
> <blockquote>made WW II in the Pacific anything but
> an
> imperialist</blockquote>
> <blockquote>slaughter on both sides. " in
> reply to your
> claim that the imperialist</blockquote>
> <blockquote>war was "justified by just war
> theory"</blockquote>
> <blockquote> </blockquote>
> <blockquote>* * *<br>
> A point I carefully described as independent of
> internationalism.</blockquote>
> <blockquote>* * *</blockquote>
> <blockquote> </blockquote>
> <blockquote>and that you regarded</blockquote>
> <blockquote>US victory as
> "preferable."</blockquote>
> <blockquote>* * *</blockquote>
> <blockquote> That from an internationalist
> point of view, yes. I
>
=== message truncated ===
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