1. I suppose I can live with sociological generalizations about ethnic groups attitudes based on polls, etc. But I really think it crosses the line when one speaks of ethnic groups "doing" things. People do things. State entities 'do' things. 'THE Ukrainians did this', 'The Poles did that' 'THE Lithuanians were the worst'....where does this go? When you hear the first part of a sentence that starts with 'THE Jews did...' what is your first reaction -- there is no such thing as 'THE Jews' in that sense.
2. This post is also truly misinformed. (To my mind, a secondary sin compared to the first.) Yes, I am aware that your statements conform EXACTLY to the standard, conventional history as told by AMERICANS of the inter-ethnic relations during the holocaust. (You rightly point out yourself the accuracy of such self-histories among American ethnic groups, so why do you fall for this?). Check out, for example, the actual written and oral histories of the Jewish holocaust survivors themselves (again, NOT the syntheses provided by American historians). There are lots, just on the web - such as the translations from chapters of Yizkor books prepared after the war by the Landsmanshaften (the memorial books prepared in Yiddish by the former Jewish residents of these towns) or Yale's Holocaust Oral History project sponsored by Steven Spielberg. (If you want to go back a bit in time, try reading 'Economic Origins of Antisemitism: Poland and Its Jews in the Early Modern Period' by Hillel Levine.)
I think you will find that this is an extremely complicated subject in which there can be found some of the worst and best examples of humanity. If one MUST make negative generalizations about the WORST of human behavior, I think you will find it correlates with specific historical, economic and political conditions and NOT ethnic groups - despite the official version told in America.
So, for example, in Poland there was an enormous difference between rural and urban areas in all matters including ethnic relations. It is in rural eastern Poland (part of the original Pale) that one finds a disproportionate amount of the incidents involving ethnic Poles (such as the notorious Jedwabne incident near Lomza that Jan Gross writes about and that Michael posted), although there are also positive individual incidents from that very region, indeed that very village. In particular, these incidents came immediately after the 1939-41 Soviet occupation of eastern Poland - some of these very same areas of eastern Poland had been briefly occupied by the Germans in the first weeks of the war and had NOT yet seen a breakdown in Polish\Jewish relations (indeed the two groups were serving together in the integrated regional units of Polish Army fighting the Germans, as they had fought together in Lomza province in the Polish uprisings of the 1860's against the Russians). In short, the presence (or absence) of collaboration with the Nazis, as well as the location and timing of that collaboration in the holocaust corolates very closely with specific material conditions (history, politics, class structure) and NOT with ethnicity. Even within the same province, even the same village.
[BTW, the camps were NOT established in Poland because of Polish anti-semitism (and there were many outside Poland). Auschwitz and a number of similar camps were established in early 1940 for the liquidation of the ethnic POLISH educated classes - their plight is under-recognized in the West. Jews were collected in newly created Ghettos and were not sent en masse to these camps until two years later in 1942. It is generally assumed that the delay was tactical - the ethnic Polish leadership class was the first threat to the occupation and, above all, no large scale moves would be made on mass extermination of Polish Jews while the US was still teetering on declaring war.]
You also cite 'THE Ukrainians' ("terrible too"). You don't say what you mean but usually, in America, this refers to the Ukrainian Division of the SS formed under Bendara and the pro-Fascist UKA of the Western Ukraine who along with related groups served as guards in the camps. This is a tiny group from which to generalize an ethnic slur (how many camp guards and Ukrainian policemen do you think there really were?). And there were similar SS Divisions from the Netherlands, Norway, etc., yet no one thinks of slurring these ethnic groups. But now the ethnic generalizations get REALLY complicated since western Ukrainians formed their collective identity more in the U.S. than in eastern Europe. Western Ukraine was ruled variously by Austria-Hungry, Poland and the Soviet Union many considered themselves Ruethanians, Rus and various groups of mountain Ukrainians until they arrived in the U.S. or until after the war when they all became part of the new boundaries of the Ukrainian SSSR. So which western Ukrainians get the collective ethnic blame? And if there is collective Ukrainian blame, is there collective Ukrainian credit? I believe a million and a half Jews in the Ukraine were saved from the Nazis (I don't have the number handy) even though 99% of their home villages and towns were occupied. The local Ukrainian authorities recognized the special danger the encroaching Nazis posed and gave them priority in what were strictly controlled civilian evacuations (for example in the desperate evacuations by boat from besieged Odessa, or from Kiev) - not so easy to do when almost everyone would also like to get out.
I think you were on the right track when you expressed skepticism over ethnic nationalist histories as written (re-written) by ethnic groups in the U.S . I would add skepticism over ethnic histories period. But if one must go into it, one HAS to go to the original sources (or at least look at dissident sources too). Every fact in your post accurately reflects the standard history (stated or implied) we get today in the US. Yet I could show you (to your satisfaction!) that every bit of it was factually false or misleading. This is probably true with most US versions of an ethnic group's history.
But please, negative ethnic generalizations based on selective histories written by other ethnic groups...well, you get the point. One can properly grieve without looking for ethnic blame.
Paul
At 08:34 AM 12/19/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>I don't have the evidence at my fingertips, but I have
>seen surveys showing astounding levels of antisemitism
>in Poland -- a country where there are, as I say, a
>lmost no Jews any more. And there are anecdotal things
>like the clowns who wanted to build a nightclub on the
>site of the railhead to Auschwitz a few years ago.
>
>As to W's defense of the prewar Poles, ptooey. I
>actually didn't say the Poles were the worst -- I said
>the Romanians and the Lithuianians were. (BTw, I
>should mention that there was a popular Yiddish song,
>Romanie, Romanie, about the glories of the old
>country. Course there area lot of sentimental Irish
>songsa bout the auld sod sung by desecendents of
>refugees from the potato famine.) The Ukranains were
>terrible too, but there the Jews were murdered by the
>Einsatzgruppen rather than in camps. The camps were
>build in Poland because there a lot of Jews there, so
>it was less trouble to transport them, and because the
>Poles were either in general hostile orindifferent to
>their fate.
>
>As to assimilation. some upper class Jews aspired to
>be Poles. Most Jews in Poland were poor people who
>lived in shtetls. The Poles didn't consider them
>Poles, but zhidy, Yids, and they didn't consider
>themselves Poles but Jews. German Jews, who looked
>down on Polish Jews as low class, dirty, unenlightened
>religious fanatics, rather embarassing, did aspire
>pretty consistently to assimilation.
>
>And W, don't give me this identity Politics crap, "I
>grew up there, this is my culture." Alas, it's my
>heritage and culture too. That's why I'm here. And why
>I have no living relatives any more in Poland.