[lbo-talk] Atheism

Kenneth MacKendrick kenneth.mackendrick at utoronto.ca
Tue Dec 30 11:54:30 PST 2003


-----Original Message----- From: lbo-talk-admin at lbo-talk.org [mailto:lbo-talk-admin at lbo-talk.org] On Behalf Of Jon Johanning


> I was using the term "creed" loosely -- not in the sense of a
formal, written document. Practicers of Shinto and other such religions certainly believe that certain things are true -- the existence of the "kami," the efficacy of various prayers, chants, spells, or the like -- and to that extent they have systems of assumptions about what is true or false about the world, just as scientists do.


> ...Etc. So the Jains *believe that* something is true. That's what I meant

by beliefs. Generally, these beliefs are not supported by what scientists would call evidence (where is the "evidence" that Mahavira reached nirvana, or that there is a nirvana for him to reach?), but are passionately believed because they satisfy certain emotional needs. (In the case of the Jains, as you describe, them, the need for wealth -- or at least, the need to escape the horrors of poverty.) As long as they find the beliefs satisfy the needs, they continue to believe that they are true; if the beliefs became unsatisfying for some reason or other, their faith would "die."

** It is important not to use our terms loosely though. A "creed" (Apostles Creed, etc.) has a very different sociological dynamic than a non-uniform or non-unifying set of practices. Shinto has no central leadership... Sure, followers of Shinto believe something but the term "Shinto" doesn't tell us what that something is aside, perhaps, from a belief in the kami - but belief in the kami might mean ancestors, deities, spirits, or something altogether different...

** I would add that beliefs don't always satisfy needs. Mary Douglas has done an excellent job of providing analyses of systems that don't work or meet the needs of participants (Purity and Danger) [and they do die out, I would cite Christianity as an example of a religious tradition that persistently doesn't meet the needs of its adherents... yet it hasn't disappeared... but what is interesting is the way in which it adapts in order to survive...]. We should fall into the trap of thinking that religion satisfies anything... the reverse might be true. Religion might be at the root of social dissatisfaction... or maybe it has nothing to do with satisfaction or dissatisfaction.

** Also... the teleology of a good many 'faith' traditions is death. Rigorous Jains live according to an austere doctrine of deprivation which is a slow and prolonged ritual suicide.

ken



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