NYT: Polls recover from Powell speech

Gar Lipow lipowg at sprintmail.com
Fri Feb 14 09:11:44 PST 2003


This is mainly addressing Wojo's points.

That people even want a delay in war is amazing given the extent to which they have been propagandized. Remember most people believe that:

A) A majority or substantial percent of the 911 bombers were Iraq. (Zero were; most were Saudis.)

B) Saddam personally had some involvement with the 911 attack on the world trade center and pentagon. (No.)

C) That Iraq has nuclear weapons, and significant bioweapons, (We would not be invading if Iraq had Nukes, ditto really effective bio or chem weapons.)

D) That Saddam is not just a dictator but is insane and unpredictable. (No, he is evil, but very aware of his own self-interest.)

If you blame them for believing these lies, tell me how they are supposed to find out otherwise. I have friends who hate politics, but think it their duty as citizens to be informedl. So they read the NY Times and Watch CNN , and listen to NPR. These are widely ptortrayed as the best news sources available, and either without bias, or with a liberal bias. And given how boringly this media presents news, and the mass of trivia they overwhelm readers, viewers and listerners with, you can understand how someone who hates politics and pays attention only as a civic duty will miss contradictions. In short misinformation is fundamental to our culturee. You can't blame people for swallowing a great deal of the propagand

And even so, there is an uneasy feeling that something is wrong, that they are not getting the right information. Why else, believing this bullshit, are the majority of people opposed to an immediate attack? Because they have an uneasy feeling that it *is* bullshit. And, unlike our bloodthirsty elites, most ordinary Americans really do not think war should be the first resort.

People are people. They should not be romanticized as inherently noble or good. But the belief they humans are inherently vile is just as much a romanticization. As to hunting being a sign for barabarism or whatever - if you eat meat for pleasure, then you have animals killed for your pleasure; anyone who eats bacon or steak, lamb chops or chicken or hamburger because they like to do so is having an animal killed for their pleasure - and thus has no business condemning those who kill animals themselves. I would add that many vegetarians I know, not being self-rightous twit like the PETA folks, do not in fact condemn us omnivores as barbarians.

There is by the way, a very strong cultural basis for hunting as a sport in the U.S.

When I lived in Texas, a couple I knew lived mostly by hunting and fishing and foraging - combined with casual labor. He hunted deer and quail and pheasants, and I suspect other game that was not entirely legal. He fished, and gathered wild roots and greens. They both gardened, and gathered firewood. (They had electricity and running water, but depended entirely on wood for heat. And they lived without air conditioning, which in the Houston area would have driven me out of state a lot sooner than I left.) They produced a lot of their own goods. But there is no way they could have lived on as little as they made without the supplemetation of hunting. Now I supposed they could have been all po-faced and mournful about it. "Oh what a pity that I have to take the lives of innocent animals to live." But in fact they enjoyed hunting and fishing, and great deal of the other stuff they did. And were in fact among the most cheerful people I knew. And really, why shouldn't they have taken as much joy in their livss as possible? How was this wrong?

Now they have kids, and are getting them as good an education as they can (not being particularly well educated themselves). And probably their kids will end up not having to hunt or fish for a living. But I'll bet that when those kids grow up they do hunt and fish for sport. After all, some of their best childhood memories will be of hunting and fishing with Mommy and Daddy. And of course this is kind of a culturual remnant. Most people, even most rural poor people, don't use hunting and fishing as a primary food source. But a lot of Americans, especially a lot of rural Americans are not that many generations removed from people who did.

Now I'm pretty ignorant about European popular culture (other than imports that become part of American culture). But the impression I always got was that hunting in Europre is reserved pretty much for upper class berks, that working people who hunt are known as "poachers".



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