lbo-talk-digest V1 #7199

ChrisD(RJ) chrisd at russiajournal.com
Mon Jan 6 23:25:18 PST 2003


Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:34:48 +0800 From: "Grant Lee" <grantlee at iinet.net.au> Subject: RE: Self-determination

Hi Grant, ----


> In the case of Chechnya, in 1994 ... Moscow thought at the time
> that all Caucasians are the same and didn't really notice a difference
> between Chechens, Avars, Laks and so forth.

But they knew the difference between a Russian and Belarusian? Are you sure it had nothing to do with economics, e.g. the oil in the Caucasus? ---- They certainly knew the difference between a Russian and a Belarussian, or a Ukrainian. Slavic identity is big in the minds of most people. Caucasians are viewed as this group of wierd dark-skinned tribes down sound.

Nah, Chechen oil is negligible. ----


> You would have to be a
> lunatic to want your country to become something like Armenia, let alone
> Chechnya.

I know it and you know it. Now tell it to the Chechens, the Armenians, the Moldovans, the the Palestinians, the Tamils, etc. ----

Well, Moldova now has a pro-Russian Communist Party government with a 75% popularity rating. They want desperately to get back with Russia. Living standards in Moldova are something like 25% what they were in 1991. People in Moldova remember would they had. Armenia is similar. The only way Armenia (and Georia) exist at all is because Russia subsidizes its economy.

Palestinians are in a different boat. Armenians and Moldovans were not oppressed ethnic groups in the post-Stalin USSR (nor were Chechens). In fact, they lived better than Russians.

----


> Over half the population in hypernationalistic UKRAINE wants
> reunification with Russia.

Given that the Ukraine government makes Putin look like a statesman, I'm not surprised. ---- What has happened to Ukraine is a damn shame. Kuchma is a joke. Also, Russia's economic growth over the past four years, much higher living standars and the respect most Ukrainians have for Putin (contrast him with Kuchma!) are a big draw.

----


> Seventy-five percent of the
> population has left. There are something like 200,000 Chechens in Moscow
> alone. Who is trying to break away from what?

Impressive figures. But who has counted them? I would guess many of those in other parts of the Federation are simply economic refugees who would face even worse hardship if they left Russia(?)And clearly the other 25% is fighting like hell. ---- Nobody knows exactly. Many (most?) are undocumented and unregistered, as is the case with very large numbers of migrant workers in Russia. (The high-end figures for illegal immigration say there are 6 million illegals in Russia. If accurate, Russia's population has actually increased since 1991.) Living standards in Russia are 5 times as high as in Central Asia or the Caucausus, and living standards in Moscow are 5 times as high as the Russian average. It is an immigration magnet. Menial laborers from Tajikistan stand on Moscow streets hoping someone will drive by and hire them to lift boxes for a day, for $5. Stll higher than they would earn in Tajikistan.

I think most people in Chechnya just want the Russians and the warlords to go away. The Chechens (middle class Muscovite Chechens) I've met say the warlords turned the place into such a shithole the Russians should just drop a nuke on the place.



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