On Mon, 5 May 2003 14:28:28 -0700 (PDT) andie nachgeborenen
<andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
> Apparently we have a disconnect, Miles. i don't think science is a
> very useful rhetorical tool, at least if science is narrowly
> conceived as biology results. Most people haven't a clue about what
> biologiy results mean, given the dismal state of science education,
> appeal to science is for rhetorical purposes just appeal to
> Authority!
Also, when discussing race and science, we might wish to keep in mind, that throughout the 19th century, and well into the 20th, a great many leading scientists took the notion of race seriously as a biological category. It really wasn't until the mid-20th century that there appeared persuasive scientific refutations of the notion of race. Up to that time racists could and did claim the authority of science for their ideas concerning humanity.
>
> What science is necessary for is not rhetoric, but knowledge. There
> is no other way of attaining reliable empirical knowledge. None.
> Zip. Zero. If people "learn" something by "tradition" for which
> there is no controlled empirical support, no possiibility of
> indeoendent test, or other marks of science, they don't know it.
> They just believe it. If this sounds Western Imperialist,
> ethnocentric. and contemptuous of alternative ways of knowing, you
> betcha booty. Galileo et al stumbled on the right way to find things
> out.
And as you well know people claim that there are all sorts of means for attaining knowledge besides science, like intuition, faith, tradition etc. And there continue to be some quite eminent intellectuals who will defend such claims too. And such non-rationalism or outright irrationalism can certainly also be used to defend racism, as many of the Nazis did, who embraced vulgarized Nietzschean or vulgarized Heideggerian critiques of science. In fact in certain Nazi circles, to be overly respectful of the methods and results of the natural sciences was considered to be symptomatic of Jewish influence.
>
> Of course, as you say, you make believe beliebe whatever you want by
> noncognitive means -- brainwashing, propaganda, drugs, "tradition,"
> social pressure, etc. But it's elementary that thinking don't make
> it so.
>
> jks
>
>
>
> Moreover, it is not even really possible to formulate the question
> "is there a nonscientific answer toa biological question"? --because
> to frame the question that way is to frame the question as a
> scientific question. If someone answer: I know there are races
> because God divided the human race into the sons Ham, Shem, and
> Japeth, and I read it in the Bible, he's not explaining race as a
> biological but as a theological matter.
>
> I think it's important to contextualize this. In a society that
> values science as we do, the only acceptable answer is a scientific
> one, I agree. But do you really believe that people can only have
> what they consider biological knowledge if they do science? A
> great deal of cross-cultural and historical data challenges this.
> Biological knowledge is common in many societies without
> scientific activity. If people were taught by tradition and cultural
> practices that skin color does not reflect important categories,
> that would be valid knowledge in their society, as assessed by the
> truth standards in that society.
>
> I stress this point because doing science is neither sufficient
> nor necessary to eliminate race in human societies, despite CB's
> claims. I agree that science is a useful rhetorical tool in our
> society, but it's hardly necessary. Let me control the mass media
> and parenting practices for a few generations, and race would be
> gone, even if all the biological research on the myth of race was
> lost.
>
> Miles
>
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