<swillsqueal at yahoo.com.au> said
>
> This has a familiar ring--even the 'hoity-toity'
> bashing. Yes, it's good to hear and know these
> things. I've been talking to working (as opposed to
> employing) people for years AND I do think that
> talking to them has some impact. However, as I've
> said before, I agree with Zizek: there is an active
> embrace of ignorance going on and it occurs not only
> in the USA but all over the planet. It seems to
trump
> reason--at least in the short term. You can tell
> people the truth and even if it conflicts with the
> dominant ideological feeling of the time, they can
> even accept it for awhile, if they are the least bit
> sophisticated. But then, they quickly put it in the
> back of their minds. It's what I'd term, the
'natural
> conservatism' of the human race--even the oppressed
> sections.
>
Gar Lipow <lipowg at sprintmail.com> responded:
OK - but Zizek is not merely observing the commonplace (people tend to identify with their ruling elites - especially when the ruling elites appear to be winning). He claims an explanation - that people think dirty work on their behalf is necessary and tend to support those they think will do it, and then repress this. I think this is, to put it mildly, open to dispute. *******************************************************
I'd say that it is pretty much on target. It needs some expansion though.
Most people I know would be horrified if they were directly and physically exposed to the horrors of war, torture and other State related atrocities. But, for the most part, they turn a blind eye to these things because they have become used to being and feeling powerless to do anything about them. There is a tension inside between wanting to be able to stop immoral acts and the reality of living in a world which they don't really control on a macro-level. The tension is resolved by accepting their powerlessness, thought of normally as being 'realistic'. Thus, most Americans accept being wage-slaves, although most would prefer the term 'middle-class'.
*******************************************************
I think there is a simpler explanation. Humans are social animals. But we are peculiarly social animals in that we take our social nature to such an extreme that the social structures we identify with are themselves socially rather than genetically constructed. (yes another commonplace). But our identification with social groups which we perceive ourselves to be members of tends to be particularly strong when we think them under threats. *********************** I agree. I also think that the groups we are 'encouraged' to identify with are socially, culturally, politically and psychologically nurtured from day one. I'd say that the encouragement comes in the form of punishments which we receive as we stick our freedom loving instincts into proscribed spaces of power. By the time most of us grow up, we've learned the hard lessons of how to behave like a German, a Jew, an American, a Peruvian, a Tutsi and so on. One obeys the dominant authority and one defends it in the face of attack. Freedom outside these boundaries is a silly thing. Reason is tool to be used to hang on to whatever rung on the power structure which we have manged to climb up to.
"Lady law never stands so tall as when she stands on someone's hand."
********* To take the example back to the recent invasion of Iraq - the majority of American people, even with all the lies they were told opposed an IMMEDIATE invasion right up to the point where they saw it as inevitable - and then public support took a sharp upwards turn. That is because whether one is invader or invaded war is perceived as a time of shared peril. Similarly, after a war is won, there is still the remnant of that feeling, the feeling of having shared and survived peril, that also strengthens these bonds.
To understand cases like the ones you raise, I think you need to see them as perversions of our tendency to cooperate rather than as arising from atomism and repression. Psychological repression may be a result; it is not a cause. Once you have this identification with the group, and the joy that kind of identification can bring, there likely is a tendency to repress knowledge that threatens that identification and solidarity. *************************
Agreed as far as it goes. Regards, Mike B)
===== ***************************************************************** "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
Benjamin Franklin
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