[lbo-talk] Let Ralph Debate in 2004

[Joseph Wanzala]

At no point did I state or suggest that the Clinton administration was 
planning an invasion of Iraq. I said and have shown that the invasion 'was 
in the works' for at least five years prior, referring to PNAC and relating 
to my point in the original discussion I was having, that the iraq invasion 
was a result of long term planning as not a reflection of 'recklessness' as 
my interlocutor seemed to be saying. This business of the Clinton 
administration having planned it is an argument you have invented and tried 
to impute to me. That is *not* what I am saying. I said that the Bush people 
has been planning this - that their plans originated during the Clinton era 
does not mean to suggest that Clinton planned it. This was clear in the 
article I posted which states that the Clintons rejected the PNAC 
recommendation. Futher, it is not that there is no diffence between the 
Clinton and Bush foreign policies, but the differences are more qualitative, 
than quantitative. That is, they do things differently. You said earlier 
something to the effect that the jury is out as to the effect of the Clinton 
enforced UN sanctions. I think not. Clearly the sanctions resulted in 
hundreds of thousands of death ad disease, and greatly weakened Iraq a a 
country, thus DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY FACILITATING AN INVASION BY THE BUSH 
REGIME. While this war has been a boondoggle for mostly Republican connected 
contractors, there is an extent to which US military preence in the region 
is an imperative strategic requirement for the entire US foregin policy 
establishment. It is pointless to ponder the question of what Clinton or 
Gore would have or would not have done in Iraq. It is more useful to look at 
what they actually did in Iraq (including keeping iraq relatively high in 
the consciouness of Americans as a threat by the continual bombing (no fly 
zone enforecement) - and elsewhere. The bombing of yugoslavia was a cruel 
and cynical policy as the Bush policy vis Iraq. Furthermore, the bombing of 
Afghanistan, also planned some years before - and recommended by Democratic 
party foreign policy stalwart Zbigniew Breszinski in his book 'The Grand 
Chessboard' was heartily supported by the Democrats, and even some 
progressives and is part of the same impetus that is driving the war in 
Iraq. Control of the worlds oil and natural gas.

Joe W.


>From: Jon Johanning <jjohanning at igc.org>
>Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Let Ralph Debate in 2004
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:38:41 -0500
>
>On Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 12:50  AM, Eubulides wrote:
>
>>In GWI one out of every 8 infantry had Sony video cameras to film the
>>terrain of Iraq in order to create simulation programs for future scenario
>>planning. Combine that with all the Satellite driven data mapping GIS
>>stuff they've got at the Defense Mapping Agency and one can create all
>>kinds of strategic simulations for combat in Iraq [and lots of other
>>theatres of possible military conflict]. This is routine stuff at the
>>Pentagon. They're running simulations now, while lots of lbosters sleep,
>>party, whathaveyou....................Baudrillard is a kindergartner
>>compared to those lovers of Thanatos.
>
>Militaries everywhere produce contingency plans of all sources and update 
>them constantly, in case they are called upon to use them. But contingency 
>plans are not the same thing as actual plans by the administration. I would 
>still like to see some evidence that the Clinton administration was 
>actively, seriously, planning a spring-2003 style invasion of Iraq.
>
>Jon Johanning // jjohanning at igc.org
>__________________________________
>A gentleman haranguing on the perfection of our law, and that it was 
>equally open to the poor and the rich, was answered by another, 'So is the 
>London Tavern.' -- "Tom Paine's Jests..." (1794); also attr. to John Horne 
>Tooke (1736-1812) by Hazlitt
>
>___________________________________
>http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk

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