Joe, writing in all caps is just annoying.
Focus.
I am asking for actual factual data from you.
I am not asking about a vague allegation of state involvement.
I am asking if Schoenman (since Bertrand Russell was over 90 at this point) through the Bertrand Russell Peace Foundation, in 1964, actually made a claim that specific sectors of the "state" or the "elite" killed Kennedy. Or was it just another vague claim that the state did it and the state covered it up?
It is simply bizarre to suggest that since so many different people all came up with so many different conspiracy theories naming so many different people as conspirators that this means you do not actually have to provide some facts in this discussion.
Recall that in the 1960s, when the political right suggested the military-industrial-complex had Kennedy killed, they meant that as a critique of what they saw as the "left"--just like McCarthy saw the CIA and the State Department as the "left."
Chip Berlet Senior Analyst Political Research Associates http://www.publiceye.org
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Wanzala [mailto:jwanzala at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 7:21 PM
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Subject: RE: [lbo-talk] "Left" Believers In Warren Report
>
>
> >From: "Chip Berlet" <cberlet at igc.org>
> >Hi,
> >
> >I am not talking about writers who complained about the
> investigative
> >process or conclusions of the Warren Commission,
>
> NEITHER AM I TALKING ABOUT MERE 'COMPLAINTS', I AM TALKING ABOUT THE
> FORMATION OF 'THE WHO KILLED KENNEDY? COMMITTEE' IN EARLY
> 1964, IN LONDON,
> THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY FROM THE BIRCHERS, INDEPENDENTLY CONDUCTING
> INQUIRIES INTO THE ASSASINATION AND COLLECTING A BODY OF INFORMATION
> POINTING TOWARDS STATE INVOLVEMENT IN THE ASSASINATION AS
> WELL AS A COVER UP
> OF SAME. THIS WAS AN OUTGROWTH OF THE WORK OF THE BERTRAND
> RUSSELL PEACE
> FOUNDATION.
>
> which certainly were
> >flawed,
>
> PLEASE ELABORATE, I WOULD BE VERY INTERESTED TO HEAR YOUR
> CRITIQUE OF THE
> WARREN COMMISSION.
>
> but an actual claim that a specific sector of the
> >"military-industrial-complex" was to blame for the assassination of
> >JFK. Other than claiming a cover-up, which was widespread,
> who were the
> >earliest people to actually claim they knew who was behind the
> >assassination.
>
> THIS DOES NOT MATTER, THE FACT IS, PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT
> POLITICAL/IDEOLOGICAL
> ORIENTATIONS, IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD, WERE SIMULTANEOUSLY
> DEVELOPING THEORIES. THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN DIFFERENT AND
> CONTRADICTORY AND
> DISPUTED CLAIMS FROM DAY ONE, SOME THAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE
> INVOLVED THE
> MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL-COMPLEX DID IT APPROACH.
>
> I am also not talking about people who blamed the
> >assasination on Castro. That was always dubious.
>
> NEITHER AM I.
> >
>
> >Chip Berlet
> >Senior Analyst
> >Political Research Associates
> >http://www.publiceye.org
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Joseph Wanzala [mailto:jwanzala at hotmail.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 8:19 PM
> > > To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> > > Subject: RE: [lbo-talk] "Left" Believers In Warren Report
> > >
> > >
> > > Berlet asked: "Can you cite an earlier date for any written
> > > materials produced by the persons you named?"
> > >
> > > At the time of the assassination of John F. Kennedy,
> Ralph Schoenman
> > > was Executive Director of the Bertrand Russell Peace Foundation.
> > > In early 1964,
> > > he formed and directed the Who Killed Kennedy Committee? In
> > > London with
> > > Bertrand Russell and other prominent figures. The
> Committee uncovered
> > > explosive documents, including files from the Dallas D.A.'s
> > > office that
> > > exposed the government cover-up. Your attempt to link
> > > left-wing epistemology
> > > about parapolitics (what you call 'conspiracy theory') to the
> > > Liberty Lobby
> > > or the John Birch Society is obtuse.
> > >
> > > Everybody conscious in America in November 1967 knew what their
> > > thoughts and suspicions were about the Kennedy
> assasination and did
> > > not need prompting by
> > > the John Birchers about what to think. And certainly forensic
> > > scientists
> > > such as Gary L. Aguilar, M.D., Cyril H. Wecht, M.D., J.D. do
> > > not premise
> > > their findings on the work of the Birchers.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe W.
> > >
> > > >From: "Chip Berlet" <cberlet at igc.org>
> > > >Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> > > >To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>
> > > >Subject: RE: [lbo-talk] "Left" Believers In Warren Report
> > > >Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:32:14 -0500
> > > >
> > > >Hi,
> > > >
> > > >A lot of conspiracy theories spread by people who see
> > > themselves as on
> > > >the political left start with the John Birch Society or
> the Liberty
> > > >Lobby.
> > > >
> > > >On the John Birch Society and conspiracism:
> > > >
> > > >See:
> > > >http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/jbs.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >I write about this stuff in "Right Woos Left," espcially how
> > > Prouty and
> > > >Mark Lane started to work with the extreme right antisemitic
> > > >Liberty Lobby and its (then) publishing arm Noontide
> Press and the
> > > >Holocaust-denying Institute for Historical Review.
> > > >
> > > >Here is an excerpt:
> > > >
> > > >"The Oliver Stone film JFK stimulated nationwide interest in
> > > >conspiracies. Some right-wing paranoid theories are
> woven into the
> > > >film, not surprising since Fletcher Prouty was an advisor to
> > > Stone, and
> > > >the film's character 'Mr. X' was primarily based on Prouty.
> > > Several of
> > > >the film's themes echo conspiracist claims appearing in a John
> > > >Birch Society magazine article on the JFK assassination
> by Medford
> > > Evans. The
> > > >article was first published in September 1967 and was
> reprinted in
> > > >April 1992 in the Birch magazine The New American to catch
> > > the wave of
> > > >publicity around the Stone film. In the article, Evans
> > > discusses rumors
> > > >that Lyndon Johnson may have engineered the Kennedy
> assassination,
> > > >considers the assassination a coup d'etat. and suggest
> the American
> > > >Establishment had JFK killed. The publisher complains,
> > > however, that if
> > > >Oliver Stone is seriously trying to indict the CIA, defense
> > > >contractors, Big Oil, Big Business, the news media, and
> a host of
> > > >others, he errs in suggesting that the whole business was a
> > > right-wing
> > > >plot. These are not individuals of the Right.' "
> > > >
> > > >http://www.publiceye.org/rightwoo/rwooz9.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >September 1967 was a relatively early date for the
> circulation of a
> > > >full-blown conspiracy theory about the Kennedy
> > > Assassination. Can you
> > > >cite an earlier date for any written materials produced by
> > > the persons
> > > >you named?
> > > >
> > > >My point is that relying on material produced by the John
> > > Birch Society
> > > >or the (now defunct) Liberty Lobby is in itself evidence
> of shoddy
> > > >research techniques, even if you choose to set aside (I
> do not) the
> > > >antisemitic obsession of the material from Liberty Lobby.
> > > This was why
> > > >I stopped working with Daniel Brandt of Namebase--his
> > > refusal to even
> > > >acknowledge that Liberty Lobby and the Spotlight
> newspaper spread
> > > >antisemitic conspiracy theories. Brandt prefers to whine
> > > that he was a
> > > >victim of "political correctness" because Holly Sklar and I
> > > >resigned from his advisory board over this issue.
> > > >
> > > >Brandt's version of reality:
> > > >http://www.namebase.org/zipdir/ppost01.html
> > > >
> > > >In which Brandt trashes "Right Woos Left" and notes:
> > > >
> > > >"Berlet hand-delivered a letter to Stone dated January
> 16, 1992, in
> > > >which he called on him to 'distance yourself publicly from
> > > attempts by
> > > >racist, anti-Jewish and pro-fascist groups to use your
> film JFK as
> > > >a vehicle to promote bigoted theories claiming Jewish control of
> > > >U.S. foreign policy and the CIA.... You appear to have
> been misled
> > > >by JFK film advisor Fletcher Prouty regarding the extent of his
> > > >cooperation with the Liberty Lobby and other neo-fascist
> operations
> > > >created by Willis Carto. Willis Carto is infamous around
> the world
> > > >as a leading Nazi-apologist. Fletcher Prouty and two
> other critics
> > > >of the
> > > CIA, Mark
> > > >Lane and Victor Marchetti, have forged deep and
> longstanding ties
> > > >to the Liberty Lobby and other Carto groups.'
> > > >
> > > >And damn proud of it, too.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Chip Berlet
> > > >Senior Analyst
> > > >Political Research Associates
> > > >http://www.publiceye.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Joseph Wanzala [mailto:jwanzala at hotmail.com]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 5:36 PM
> > > > > To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> > > > > Subject: RE: [lbo-talk] "Left" Believers In Warren Report
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Neither the John Birch Society nor any right-wing group own,
> > > > > originated or have exclusivively propagated the idea that JFK
> > > > > was assasinated by a plot which involved elements of
> the state
> > > > > apparatus. There are any number of
> > > > > left-wing researchers and activists including Carl
> > > Oglesby, Bertrand
> > > > > Russell, Ralph Schoenmann, Peter Dale Scott, Josiah
> Thompson and
> > > > > John Judge who Stone consulted for his movie, along
> with people
> > > > > like
> > > L. Fletcher
> > > > > Prouty. Besides, just because a right wing
> reactionary scientist
> > > > > makes a claim does not mean you dismiss the data
> based on your
> > > > > ideological differences with him or her, the data is either
> > > > > sound or
> > > it is not.
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe W.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "Chip Berlet" <cberlet at igc.org>
> > > > > >Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> > > > > >To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>
> > > > > >Subject: RE: [lbo-talk] "Left" Believers In Warren Report
> > > > > >Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 16:12:30 -0500
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I'm sorry, Shane, I am confused. Are you supporting the
> > > John Birch
> > > > > >Society theory (picked up by Oliver Stone) that Kennedy was
> > > > > killed by a
> > > > > >conspiracy of the military industrial complex and that Jack
> > > > > >Ruby was part of the vast plot when he killed Oswald?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Or
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Are you supporting the even further to the right theory that
> > > > > >Kennedy was killed by the secret global Jewish
> elites and that
> > > > > >their
> > > > > agent Jake
> > > > > >Rubinstein was part of the vast plot when he killed Oswald?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >It is so hard to keep up....
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Chip Berlet
> > > > > >Senior Analyst
> > > > > >Political Research Associates
> > > > > >http://www.publiceye.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Shane Mage [mailto:shmage at pipeline.com]
> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 1:26 AM
> > > > > > > To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] "Left" Believers In Warren Report
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Doug wrote:
> > > > > > > >...Pretty much everything you need to know about how
> > > > > things work is
> > > > > > > >right in the open.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Many of us have long known "pretty much everything you
> > > > > need to know
> > > > > > > about how things work." But the devils hide in the
> > > > > details, don't
> > > > > > > they? The *fact* that Kennedy was overthrown
> > > > > > > conspiratorially has been "right in the open" since day
> > > > > > > three (the smoking gun was literally seen
> worldwide in the
> > > > > > > hands of Jake Rubinstein alias Jack Ruby). But
> the details
> > > > > > > of who conspired, how, and why, remain secret. Do
> I "need to
> > > > > > > know" them? Until
> > > I do know,
> > > > > > > no-one has the right to tell me that I don't need
> to know.
> > > > > > > Likewise with the events around "9/11." But the need to
> > > > > > > know seems to me to be clearer and much more urgent.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Shane Mage
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Thunderbolt steers all
> > > > > > > things."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ___________________________________
> > > > > > > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >___________________________________
> > > > > >http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> > > > >
> > > > >
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